Good Martins & Gibsons VS boutique luthiers: are they comparable?

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Explicit in your premise is that there is no "feedback loop" between player and instrument. That a player, even a "+25 handicap" duffer is incapable of being a better player given a more responsive and accurate instrument. While that indeed may well be true of you that does not make it true of anyone else. Even a "living room hack."

The feedback loop of a 25 handicap player is NOT the same as the "loop" of a Pierre Bensusan, or Bryan Sutton, or Tommy Emanuel, and part of the reason those players, and those of their caliber, are as good as they are is flat out that they are truly gifted, both in the skill and the passion for playing/making music, and in their work eithic to build the skills they can attain from their gift/passion.

We 25 handicappers are what we are, and we certainly do have a feedback loop per se'...but we are still never going to have the skill level to reach deep into the playing performance capabilities of a high performance level guitar and pull it out into the open, like the scratch, or +5 PGA Tour Level...to use the analogy further...player...like Pierre, or Bryan, or Tommy...et al. Now somewhere out there right now, there ARE the 25 handicappers who DO have that gift, that passion, and THEY WILL reach the pinnacle level with hard work and a little good luck here and there.

But most of us "hackers" as the late great Bud Collins...RIP Bless You Bud...called us...we are what we are, and where we are. And that is perfectly OK...but...for us to pretend that we can do things that we really can't...and talk like we can...is folly...and does a disservice to all the perfectly great guitars out there that are "MORE than good enough" for the vast majority of us players.

Also...a super important...and alas...often purposely ignored component of getting the "best" out of any guitar, is taking the time and effort to really really learn a specific instrument...how it works, it's strengths, it's weaknesses, and how to bring forth the most you can of the best it has to offer.

That takes, time, and patience, and practice, and commitment, which is often in somewhat short supply in the 25 handicap world of both golf, and guitars, where we just try to "buy a better game" rather than put in the effort to develop our own skill, our own "better game" so to speak.

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[zmf]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

Any well made, basic model level...D-28, J-45, 814, F-50R, LL-16 factory guitar, USA Made or Pac Rim, is going to EASILY be capable of handling our 25+ handicap playing skill, and in fact, we will not likely ever really press said guitar to it's performance capability limits.

Dang, they all got 6 strings, don't they?

[zmf]

hmm. How'd that happen?

[Jaden]

Pretty well agree Duff; put a fine instrument in my hands and there will be an initial burst of creativity but after the first kiss is done, it’s back to the grind of practice and there’s no escaping laziness, boasting and lying to oneself about one’s skill and lack of discipline while hiding behind a guitar.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by zmf

Dang, they all got 6 strings, don't they?

Yes they do, and they all can and do sound just terrific and make wonderful music!

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[dneal]

The player is a variable independent of the quality of the guitar. The idea that an average player is “hiding behind” a quality guitar is silly. An average player can enjoy a quality guitar just like an average driver can enjoy a sports car. You don’t have to be Tommy Emmanuel in a concert hall or Michael Schumacher on a circuit.

[Steadfastly]

Martin, Gibson and Taylor use quality woods, a proven design and skilled craftsman. Boutique builders use quality woods, their design (usually proven) and skilled craftsmen. The difference is what you like tonewise and the price. Martin, Gibson and Taylor buy at much better price points than any boutique builder and can produce a thousand or more guitars while many boutique builders build one.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

Yes they do, and they all can and do sound just terrific and make wonderful music!

Yes they can.

But my question to you is do you have a favorite guitar, or do you really think they're all interchangeable?

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

The feedback loop of a 25 handicap player is NOT the same as the "loop" of a Pierre Bensusan, or Bryan Sutton, or Tommy Emanuel, and part of the reason those players, and those of their caliber, are as good as they are is flat out that they are truly gifted, both in the skill and the passion for playing/making music, and in their work eithic to build the skills they can attain from their gift/passion.

I never said that it was. Those are your words. I never said that simply buying a more responsive guitar all by itself is going to make someone Tommy or Pierre. Again, that is your theory. Your justification for why someone who is a middling player could only want a higher end guitar is for it's bragging rights. Could someone with a -9 handicap get more out of a very responsive guitar than someone with a 25 handicap? Well, duh. But that does not mean that the more responsive guitar could not have a positive effect on the 25 handicap either. Something that you seem to discount.

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

We 25 handicappers are what we are, and we certainly do have a feedback loop per se'...but we are still never going to have the skill level to reach deep into the playing performance capabilities of a high performance level guitar and pull it out into the open, like the scratch, or +5 PGA Tour Level...to use the analogy further...player...like Pierre, or Bryan, or Tommy...et al. Now somewhere out there right now, there ARE the 25 handicappers who DO have that gift, that passion, and THEY WILL reach the pinnacle level with hard work and a little good luck here and there.

So what you are saying is that all us 25 handicappers can not aspire to becoming a 24 handicap, if we find a tool that will help us with than endeavor and learn how to use it?

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

But most of us "hackers" as the late great Bud Collins...RIP Bless You Bud...called us...we are what we are, and where we are. And that is perfectly OK...but...for us to pretend that we can do things that we really can't...and talk like we can...is folly...and does a disservice to all the perfectly great guitars out there that are "MORE than good enough" for the vast majority of us players.

Again, you sure seem to be comfortable with speaking for others. I am not sure who you think is claiming that they can do things that they can't. I have only spoken for myself, and from my own personal experience. And I found that having an extremely responsive guitar with clarity and a tone to die for has had a positive effect on my playing. Others may have had a different experience. More power to 'em.

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

Also...a super important...and alas...often purposely ignored component of getting the "best" out of any guitar, is taking the time and effort to really really learn a specific instrument...how it works, it's strengths, it's weaknesses, and how to bring forth the most you can of the best it has to offer.

Well, yeah, no kidding. You are kind of belaboring the obvious. When I first got the Old Mac, one of the first things that I noticed was how hard it was to get good sound out of. Because every clam, mistake, misfret, poor string attack, etc, showed up, loud and clear. I mean LOUD and clear. It was HARD to play well. To pull a good, clean tone More so than the Froggy. More than my old Guilds. The Santa Cruz that I had. The various Yamahas. Etc. But when you got it right, that guitar just sang. Sings.

If fact, it sang so well that you really found yourself working at NOT making those mistakes that had become so ingrained that I didn't notice them on more forgiving guitars. And became a better player as a result. And which I am sure carries over onto more forgiving guitars, when I play them.

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

That takes, time, and patience, and practice, and commitment, which is often in somewhat short supply in the 25 handicap world of both golf, and guitars, where we just try to "buy a better game" rather than put in the effort to develop our own skill, our own "better game" so to speak.

Dude, I bought the guitar of which I speak 18 years ago. I still play it, if not every day, then once a week. (I have several guitars, including the aforementioned Froggy and another McAlister, that I rotate. But it is still the most responsive, has the most clarity, of any guitar that I have. And when I pick it up after spending a few days or weeks playing one of the others, I have to "up my game."

I am truly sorry that you just don't get it...But, as I usually close with:

Others mileage may vary...

'cuse me while I go and play.

[Tnfiddler]

So I’m an average rhythm guitar player, but I wanted a Bourgeois! Will I ever be able to play it to its potential, NO! BUT, it’s the best sounding guitar I’ve ever owned and it makes me want to play every chance I get! It’s so easy to play and sounds so good, I really enjoy playing it. Nothing wrong with a ordinary person owning an extraordinary guitar!

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

Nothing wrong with a ordinary person owning an extraordinary guitar!

+1. We're leaving behind the simple concepts of fun and pleasure in this thread. If it results in some musical maturation, that's gravy.

[Jaden]

I was able to acquire some fine instruments all at once, and this time, unlike in the past, each purchase worked out perfectly, uncanny really, and as it happens the most expensive are on hand all the time and have top notch performance, and interestingly in my case provide the most convincing extreme low volume performance due to responsiveness. 1/4” scalloped braced Martins. Nice sports cars driven very very slowly.

[Manothemtns]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

So I’m an average rhythm guitar player, but I wanted a Bourgeois! Will I ever be able to play it to its potential, NO! BUT, it’s the best sounding guitar I’ve ever owned and it makes me want to play every chance I get! It’s so easy to play and sounds so good, I really enjoy playing it. Nothing wrong with a ordinary person owning an extraordinary guitar!

Nothing wrong at all! Go for it.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

So I’m an average rhythm guitar player, but I wanted a Bourgeois! Will I ever be able to play it to its potential, NO! BUT, it’s the best sounding guitar I’ve ever owned and it makes me want to play every chance I get! It’s so easy to play and sounds so good, I really enjoy playing it. Nothing wrong with a ordinary person owning an extraordinary guitar!

There can be infinite beauty in the single strum of a chord....

A guitar that lets each note ring out while it fills the room, as an symphony would.

A guitar that fills our minds with overtones and nuances long after the notes have stopped ringing.

A guitar that calls out to me over and over and over.... come and play me.

It took me that lifetime to understand just what kind of guitar that was. And now it gives me a lifetime of rewards every time I strum but a single chord.

That is what a great guitar can do for us Average Rhythm guitar players. If a single strum does for you as to what it does for me, then you have lived up to that potential of your Bourgeois. It will ask no more of you.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

So I’m an average rhythm guitar player, but I wanted a Bourgeois! Will I ever be able to play it to its potential, NO! BUT, it’s the best sounding guitar I’ve ever owned and it makes me want to play every chance I get! It’s so easy to play and sounds so good, I really enjoy playing it. Nothing wrong with a ordinary person owning an extraordinary guitar!

I don't find anything wrong with that. I'm a chronically mediocre mostly at home player with a very nice guitar. One important observation with the really nice guitar is it killed GAS. It's a 2009 and this is 2019. I'm still thrilled to handle it and listen to the tones that come out of it.