The Future for Sapele ??

Judson · #1 03-09-2012, 08:10 AM

Honduran Mahogany is still fairly plentiful. So for right now, this question is not a big issue ... but ...

Will sources and availability for good Honduran Mahogany go the way of Brazilian Rosewood in the next couple of decades?

Driven mostly by economics so far, we've already seen the switch to Sapele as a substitute for Mahogany. Martin, Taylor and most of the other makers use it extensively on their lower-end instruments.

Although market conditions were much different back then, didn't the same sort of thing happen when East Indian Rosewood supplanted Brazilian. When the Brazilian became hard to get, Martin basically said, that's it ... from now on it's East Indian RW for us and the public will just have to like it.

And obviously the general public does like East Indian Rosewood just fine.

Of course, right now traditionalist and purists currently consider Sapele (often called African Mahogany) an economical ... but inferior ... compromise for Honduran Mahogany.

And after all these years, a lot of them still cling to the idea that East Indian is a poor substitute for Brazo and will pay a huge premium to get what the want.

But for the general buying public, isn't it likely that this attitude will change over the next couple of decades to the point that we will begin to accept Sapele as not just a cheaper compromise, but as a high quality tonewood for more expensive guitars in the way that East Indian Rosewood has become perfectly acceptable to most of the buying public?

At some point, the Honduran Mahogany will run out and something will have to take its place.

If not Sapele ... then what??

.

L20A · #2 03-09-2012, 08:24 AM

Guitar makers have been using alternative woods for years.
As the availability of some woods diminish, other woods will take their places.
This is evident as you look at the different woods that are now offered for guitars.

Will these new woods be embraced by consumers?
Probably not at first but as these alternate woods become the only options for affordable guitars, we will be happy that we have them.

Look at the direction that guitar making is already going.
There are many different woods being used today and don't forget the composite guitars.

Legolas1971 · #3 03-09-2012, 08:25 AM

good question.....I don't wanna think about it

magazine · #4 03-09-2012, 08:34 AM

WIkepedia

The commercially important wood is reminiscent of mahogany, a member of the same family, with a distinctive figure, typically applied where figure is important. It has a density of 640 kg per cubic metre. It is most commonly used for flooring.

Among its more exotic uses is that in musical instruments. It is used for the top, back and sides of acoustic guitar bodies as well as the tops of electric guitar bodies. It is also used in manufacturing the neck piece of ukuleles and 26- and 36-string harps. In the late 90s, it started to be used as a board for Basque percussion instruments txalaparta.

The American car maker Cadillac also uses sapele wood for interior wood trim on its vehicles. [1]

zooropamofo · #5 03-09-2012, 08:38 AM

I find Sapele to be a brighter sounding wood that lacks the "chunk" of mahogany. On my Taylor GS Mini, however, the Sapele laminate used on the B&S has some beautiful gold ribbon effects happening, something I've never seen on regular Sapele.

I think that it's a viable tonewood, though I doubt it will ever be highly prized.

drive-south · #6 03-09-2012, 08:40 AM

Honduran Mahogany may still be plentiful, but it's getting more and more expensive. As a result many manufacturers are switching to Sapelle. All I ask is that they accurately describe their products and don't mince words.

My Larrivee BT-03 supposedly has "mahogany" back/sides. Sorry but it doesn't look like mahogany to me. I'd bet a week's pay it's Sapelle. I put it next to my mahogany Larrivee Parlor and they are 2 distinctly different species of wood. No question about it.

SOR · #7 03-09-2012, 08:43 AM

According to the big manufacturers Honduran Mahogany is in fact more scarce right now and alternate woods will continue to be used more and more in future.

wa3jpg · #8 03-09-2012, 08:50 AM

> Of course, right now traditionalist and purists currently consider Sapele (often called African Mahogany) an economical ... but inferior ... compromise for Honduran Mahogany.
>

I don't find this true at all. Who considers Sapele inferior to Mahogany? In numerous discussions with luthiers and guitar makers I have found that they consider Sapele an "alternative" but never "inferior" overall. It IS cheaper by a little in today's market.

Have you noticed that Sapele is used by Martin on their [relatively expensive] CEO series? Have you seen some of the custom Sapele guitars?

As far as "sound" goes - in my experience it is more about the builder / design than the wood (overall, certainly there is a contribution from the wood itself, but it isn't the determining factor at all....) I've done blind test after blind test with Mahogany and Sapele versions of the Martin D-15 and I can't find anyone who can reliably tell the difference.

I respect your love for Honduran Mahogany, it is beautiful stuff and makes good guitars in the right hands. But so does Sapele.

Clark

andrewbenw · #9 03-09-2012, 08:53 AM

I think we'll see more Spanish cedar on guitar necks, like Martin has started doing, and more sapele back and sides.

andrewbenw · #10 03-09-2012, 08:57 AM

Interestingly, Honduras Mahogany grown in countries it is native to will eventually be banned from export, but mahogany farms in south-east Asia won't be restricted the same way. We could see a lot of mahogany being farmed in other countries.

Also, Honduras Mahogany has the same rating (vulnerable/threatened) as Brazilian Rosewood has according to the IUCN.

drive-south · #11 03-09-2012, 09:47 AM

I'll let the builders chime in here.

I know that mahogany is open-grained and needs to be filled with paste-wood filler before it gets finished to fill in the little pin holes in the grain. This is a labor-intensive step in the finishing process.

Does Sapelle get filler? If not this would be another motive for using it over mahogany to save money on the finishing process.

The wood on my Larivee BT-03 does not appear to have filler, or those little pore-holes that are so common on mahogany.

Judson · #12 03-09-2012, 09:49 AM

My Martin is made of Sapele.

I think it's fine, but to me there is no doubt that in the present market, Sapele is percieved as a cheaper, more readily available substitute/compromise for Honduran mahogany.

That's the reason I posed the question.

There may indeed be some custom luthiers who build with Sapele by choice, but not very many ... and yes, Martin and Taylor are using Sapele, but for the most part right now, it's relegated to the lower end of the line-up.

Once again, I think Sapele is a fine tonewood, but then I'm not a purist or a traditionalist (LOL, I can't afford to be!).

As mahogany becomes unavailable, choices will have to be made and attitudes will have to change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wa3jpg

> ... Who considers Sapele inferior to Mahogany? In numerous discussions with luthiers and guitar makers I have found that they consider Sapele an "alternative" but never "inferior" overall. Clark

Judson · #13 03-09-2012, 09:53 AM

Philippine Mahogany is plentiful, but from what I have read, it is not any good for making guitars. Would this be true of mahogany raised on farms in SE Asis? Okay for furniture, etc., but not for tonewoods on guitars??

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewbenw

Interestingly, Honduras Mahogany grown in countries it is native to will eventually be banned from export, but mahogany farms in south-east Asia won't be restricted the same way. We could see a lot of mahogany being farmed in other countries.

Also, Honduras Mahogany has the same rating (vulnerable/threatened) as Brazilian Rosewood has according to the IUCN.

andrewbenw · #14 03-09-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackville

Philippine Mahogany is plentiful, but from what I have read, it is not any good for making guitars. Would this be true of mahogany raised on farms in SE Asis? Okay for furniture, etc., but not for tonewoods on guitars??

Philippine Mahogany isn't a mahogany species. Honduras Mahogany (species) can be grown in tropical parts of Asia on mahogany farms.

aphillips · #15 03-09-2012, 10:19 AM

It seems like anyone who loves sapele, or doesn't have serious mahogany lust, can get some amazing sets of sapele for relatively cheap. Kind of like getting stock in facebook before anyone else cared I suppose?