Good Martins & Gibsons VS boutique luthiers: are they comparable?

[Marcus Wong]

In my experience, Martins CAN sound as good as Collings, but they usually don't. You'd have to first understand that optimal sound is a result of optimal building where the mass/stiffness of the top is just right - not overbuilt resulting in lack of response and muddiness (balance, fullness of tone, etc. are another matter which I'm not even referring to here).

So assuming that an ideal top is built to a stiffness of 100 (random number) where <100 will result in structural instability and >100 is overbuilt, mass producers like Martin Guitars have to built around averages +/- standard deviation and still make sure that their guitars are structurally sound. So they might end up building at an average of 115 +/- 10 so as to not create a structurally unsound guitar which might result in a rise in warranty claims. Collings with a more personal approach might be able to reduce that number to 110 +/- 5, resulting in more consistently good sounding guitars. And then again, a step up would be solo luthiers where the good ones are building at 100 almost every single time.

Apart from this aspect of an optimal sound in terms of an efficient air pump, I find that Collings in general are more balanced with fuller trebles.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by archerscreek

Of the 30+ boutique guitars I've looked at in the past few years, every one was as good as or better looking than the best Martin guitars I've seen. Of the dozen or so boutique guitars I've played and the others I've heard other guitarists playing, none sounded better than the best Martin guitars I've played.

Define "better looking."

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by asilker

I can't respond to every comment, but I am taking them all in. Thanks for adding to the discussion folks, please keep it coming.

"Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
No. Next question..."

I like a strong opinion. Can you explain a little bit more?

I've a few minutes before having to head out, so sure...

But first, understand that I have no issue with Martin. They make excellent guitars. In fact, I own 2, although they are from the 60s and 50s respectively. I like 000-18s, It is great that you chose with your ears, and picked a guitar that spoke to you. It is as it should be. Now, play the snot out of it, in good health.

What underlies my position is knowledge of how guitars are made. One way is to identify a set of optimal specifications and build every guitar to that set of specs. That is, each brace is just this thick, each top plate is just this thick. Every one has just this bracing pattern. Each neck is just so. Most large and even mid-scale manufacturers use this method. Martin, Taylor, Gibson, Larrivee, etc. All produce some very good guitars using this method.

But, the flaw in this method is that they are using inconsistent materials. Wood. Each bit of wood is going to have similar, but not identical characteristics with regard to stiffness and flex. They could be different within the same tree, or from trees that grew 100 feet apart. One might happen to be in richer soil. Or have gotten more sunlight. Or steady wind.

So the spec manufacturing process only partly takes this into account. They identify a set of specs that they believe will, on average, produce the most good sounding guitars. (We are talking entirely sonic characteristics here, not visual. A AAA grade top or back is graded on the visual, not the sonic.) Sometimes the specs match up exactly with what will produce the best sounding guitar given the stiffness and flex of that particular top. But not always. some are going to off just a bit. Occasionally by a lot. Which is why people will tell you to play as many as you can, and to buy the one that sounds best.

However, some manufacturers spend more time adjusting the set specs to the individual woods. Particularly small shop manufacturers. Santa Cruz does. Collings, I think. Etc. This is both a more time intensive method and requires a more experienced set of hands and ears. Time and skill equals cost. There may be only one person who does the tops, which requires that skill, while the other workers are simply highly skilled woodworkers.

And then there are the solo builders (Jim Olson. Kathy Wingert), or the 2 or 3 person operations (Froggy Bottom. David Webber). While there are some who build more to a spec, most veer towards more customizing the build to what will bring the best in tone and responsiveness from every build.

One result is that the small builder guitars tend to be on average more sonically great, because they build is adjusted to bring out the best sonic characteristics of that individual wood. Can a spec manufactured guitar sound as good? Sure. When the spec being used matched up exactly with what brings out the best in that set. The trick is finding that one stellar guitar in the field of near misses.

And then we get to the builders who also can vary the things like bracing patterns or plate thickness to produce exactly the tone and response characteristics that they want. My "Old Mac" custom build by luthier Roy McAlister was built to be an extremely light touch fingerpicker. A sharp glance sets the guitar to ringing. Yet I also have another McAlister, that I bought used from the builder, that was built for an aggressive flatpicker. The low dynamics are not as sensitive, but you can really dig into it. I've also played some of his "Smeckalisters" 12-fret Dreads based on the old Gibson Roy Smecks that are great flatpickers.

The point is that some of these small builders are excellent at customizing a guitar to give the responsiveness and playability that the client is seeking. Not to mention things like nut widths, neck profiles, string spacing and the like.

So the reason for my original answer is that you are comparing a mass-market automobile with a Formula One racing car. Your Martin may well be a race-modded Civic compared to the general civic population. Quick, fast and agile. But wait until you get behind the wheel of a Mercedes F1...

Others mileage, may of course, vary. Their problem, not mine...

[stevedenver]

Mycrofts point is great.

I have several martins, 4 high end authentics and custom shops...and other stuff.

I have a boutique L5 and tele ,F5 mandolin...and 5e3 amp that are...wonderful.

I lost my name brand loyalty, to some extent.
Theres a value element, and this is subjective, and often based in part on ones means.


Theres a flip side to equivalent boutiques.
Often details can be exquisite, finishes like wet glass.
Great sound and fret work, etc.

Sound can vary, and if you custom order, its touchier to refuse the guitar.
For really high end boutiques, imho, for a tiny incremental improvement, if any, the cost may be 3x of a factory built custom shop type product.

But, its always about the individual guitar.

Theres a dimishing return as price increases. I can have a lot of joy from a low priced guitar too.

In the throes of making music, some things become less important. Yes a great guitar is just that, but, its not my only focus, musically. I guess i can find something to love in about any guitar.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Your Martin may well be a race-modded Civic compared to the general civic population. Quick, fast and agile. But wait until you get behind the wheel of a Mercedes F1...

Civic to F1. That's quite a spread. Sure you want to stick with that analogy?

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by zmf

Civic to F1. That's quite a spread. Sure you want to stick with that analogy?

Have you ever played a McAlister?

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Have you ever played a McAlister?

No, I haven't. Where would you rank it (if these things are "rankable") among the boutiques? Perhaps I've played an equivalent.

[dneal]

"Boutique" is a problematic term, without a specific or common definition. It can refer to guitars built by large shops that crank out a couple of hundred guitars a year, assembled by workers who couldn't build an entire guitar. It can refer to a luthier that builds all his (or her) guitars, with help for the more mundane tasks in some cases.

At one time I was under the impression that Martin was the pinnacle of guitar making.

I made a trip to a shop with an abundance of luthier and small shop built guitars, and took my 00-28vs along for reference/comparison.

Every guitar was louder and more responsive than the 00. Some were fine guitars, but tonally did nothing for me. That has continued to be the case as I've experienced more builders' guitars. Conversely, I have experienced some truly amazing "boutique" instruments, and own a couple.

[rokdog49]

I had an interesting experience today when I visited my guitar tech Tim Sowers for some tweaking on my J45 saddle.
I have done a fair amount of business with Tim and we have become friends. He has had the privilege of working on some pretty expensive guitars that were owned by some pretty famous folks in some cases. These guitars are the likes of Santa Cruz and other boutiques, not to mention every other brand known to mankind.
While I was waiting, Tim directed me to a case and told me to open it up so I did. Inside was a guitar and Tim said "take it out and play it." The first two things I noticed was on the head stock there was a small, inconspicuous script logo that read "Sowers". The second thing was it was definitely a D18 clone, with the pre-2012 bracing.
Tim told me the back and sides were Honduran Mahogany. It was gorgeous.
The Spruce top was an super nice piece of wood with a very tight grain and a touch of bear claw. It was nicely aged to a golden shade. Tim had bound the neck and body with an ivory-looking material he wouldn't disclose and it was impeccable. In fact the whole dang guitar was impeccably built.
When I first strummed it, I went WOW! It sounded for all the world like many a great D18 I had played. The more I played it, the more I wanted it. I asked Tim if he was interested in selling it and he just smiled. I understood what that meant. It was his one and only build, a real gem.
Just thought I would share that story with everyone.
Incidentally, he told me it took him about six months to build it.

[tippy5]

Just sold my 2016 000-18. The new owner loves it. It was a good Martin. Nothing quite sounds like one. Great for all around playing and recording. Handpicked from a dozen at the PA factory. I really loved it for a year or two but the feel and better tone boutiques made up my mind.

My last acquisition is a 11.81" rad. round fretboard, an Asian cheapy. I love the fast neck. Generally "boutique" speaking the more money you spend on an acoustic the better the guitar. The pluses are not linear. Sometimes that extra 10% of feel, tone and aesthetics for double the price can seem a little skewed. Conversely, as many know, there are amazing sub $1,000 guitars now available. But I still vote for the $5-11K retail boutiques for me.

We all are on our own guitar journey. Some stop at their first one. Some their 3rd or 5th one. In 15 years of GAS, I have been through 50 with a typical baseline number of 7. Out of my current 7 there are at least 3 if not 4 that I don't think I will sell, or give away to family members.

The Martin I just sold I super enjoyed. But the sharp bout edge at the forearm and the 16" fretboard radius were the two minor things that made it's exit easy. Although I would love and am looking for the new 2019 0-18's coming out in a few months.

If you love the great 000-18 then I am sure you will be super happy with one. I was for a while. If you can afford a hand built take a look at the AGF Custom Shop for a possible 000 just for you.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by zmf

No, I haven't. Where would you rank it (if these things are "rankable") among the boutiques? Perhaps I've played an equivalent.

9.7 on the Richter scale?

No idea how to rank instruments... <G>

They do go toe to toe with my Froggy, an All-World Class instrument in its own right. The custom jobbie is slightly more responsive at the low end of the dynamic range, though.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

9.7 on the Richter scale?

No idea how to rank instruments... <G>

They do go toe to toe with my Froggy, an All-World Class instrument in its own right. The custom jobbie is slightly more responsive at the low end of the dynamic range, though.

This was in jest, of course. But I'm a Porsche track junkie, so I take car analogies seriously. A F1 "vehicle" is a different species from a car, which can be functionally defined as something that legally and practically can be used to go to the grocery for a loaf of bread. F1's are a different animal. All guitars are guitars.

I own a Froggy, so have some idea of what you're getting at. Could swear there's a hidden battery somewhere in it that powers a sympathetic oscillator that gives it extra energy.

[gitarro]

Because gibson and martin do not voice each of their guitars, it is solely a matter of probabilities whether you get an average guitar or a good one from them.

Whereas in theory with a solo luthier, his skill in voicing the guitar can help you get closer to tonal excellence but that is dependent on his skill in doing so.

If you can play before you buy that is always best but having said that, playing before you buy is an absolute necessity with a factory guitar in particular due to the above reason.

Other things a solo luthier can usually help do for you better than a factory can is to customise exactly the features you want for ergonomic or aesthetic reasons.

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by zmf

Civic to F1. That's quite a spread. Sure you want to stick with that analogy?

A local guy had a guitar collection consisting apparently of mostly small shop and factory guitars. He had the opportunity to try out my Somogyi side by side with his guitars and for the first time realised that his guitars were outshone by the somogyi in every tonal department. When they get it spot on, the ceiling on good luthier made guitars is far higher than a factory guitar and the civic vs the formula one analogy is perfectly valid.

[guitarman68]

Hi,

I just found it, so I hope I do not repeat what is said before (a lot of knowledge here).
During the last 30 years I played many, many Martins and owned 30 or so, from DM, 000-15 to OM 42 to Authentic series. I was lucky to chose the best (what I meant the best is IMHO) among five or six guitars of the same model. I could see that the quality was not consistent then.
I owned six or seven Collins guitars and played many more and the quality was incredible consistent.
Soundwise they are different: Collings lacks the warmth of a Martin but brings more definition to the table. So you have to decide what you prefer.
I never really could find a Bourgeois or Santa Cruz that speaks to me. Great guitars, but somehow it didn't work for me.
Owning three boutique guitars (made by Jim Merrill) I would say they are better guitars at a significant higher price. But comparing my Merrill C28 to a Martin D 28 Authentic 1937 (same price range) I can not say the one is better than the other. Same result comparing my Merrill OM28 to a Martin OM 28 Authentic 1931. It took me many sessions to find out which one to keep and which one to sell.
In the Authentic series Martin shows what they are able.
And from trying new Standard Martins from the last two or three years it seems they have really worked on the consistency of quality.