When will carbon fiber guitars come down in price?

Mr. Morciglio;

Your work and report are fascinating; thank you for the information and pictures.

[jwayne]

Originally Posted by Finger Stylish

Why would the price ever go down. The sound is exquisite, the playability is superb. The price / value should be based on what the product produces, not producing the product. Particularly when you're discussing an item used in the arts.

I have to disagree with your assertion here. The price of most items in the world - including guitars - IS indeed largely based on production costs not what the "product produces". If the price gets too out of line with production costs, then someone else takes advantage of that (in a capitalist economy). There are exceptions, of course; e.g. if there is limited demand for a product (and some here have stated that in part this applies to CF guitars) or if there are tight pricing controls (diamonds are common but De Beers has convinced people otherwise.)

Nevertheless, the original question (which has developed into a fascinating thread) was based on wondering what the relatively high costs were based on for CF guitars and whether they'd ever (well, in the foreseeable future) be used for budget guitars.

[Finger Stylish]

Originally Posted by jwayne

I have to disagree with your assertion here. The price of most items in the world - including guitars - IS indeed largely based on production costs not what the "product produces". If the price gets too out of line with production costs, then someone else takes advantage of that (in a capitalist economy). There are exceptions, of course; e.g. if there is limited demand for a product (and some here have stated that in part this applies to CF guitars) or if there are tight pricing controls (diamonds are common but De Beers has convinced people otherwise.)

Nevertheless, the original question (which has developed into a fascinating thread) was based on wondering what the relatively high costs were based on for CF guitars and whether they'd ever (well, in the foreseeable future) be used for budget guitars.

If you disregard the last sentence of my statement that you quoted, perhaps.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by EvanB

Mr. Morciglio;

Your work and report are fascinating; thank you for the information and pictures.

Ditto!!!!!

[AndyFrank]

Originally Posted by John Morciglio

Thanks!

As far as actual pricing for an AL mold(s).

I was a diemaker by trade. So I would/could make the molds myself;
have NOT ever priced the job?

Not saying I know what was paid by who?
Used to MFG Harley parts;
you can get a full custom 23" wheel milled for about 10k.
"supposedly" about 30+ hours of mill time and includes a one-off design/program.

My close friend with a full machine shop, including 3-4 5-axis mills charges about $165,00 per hr. I'm sure you can find higher prices but you can also find lower.

I would use casting resin over a plug even if I had a larger budget.

Pre-pregs require a "controlled environment, (cooler temps) for working and storage.

They also do not conform to complex curves/radii etc.

Their benefits are many (mostly for the MFG and mass production ;-)
Can cure in as little as a half hour before de-molding.

This does not yield a stronger, OR lighter part. It can be made faster with (probably) a higher cost for material.

Could I use my molds with pre-pregs ?" yes but I would coat all the exposed wood with the same high-temp surface coat used on the molds.

If someone said they wanted to "fund" or invest to build bikes, guitars, or whatever and I had a million dollar budget, I would still not use pre-preg unless mass production and "X" number or volume HAD to be met.

(simply because of it not conforming to compound curves) well.

Pre-preg alone does not create a "better" carbon product.

The recipe/formula, R+D, trial-error, and experience by the builder is what will create the highest quality and best sounding instrument.

Tops (flat or arch) can be built many different ways.
With a wooden top, you can build it exactly the same and get a different sound depending on the wood itself.

Carbon is more predictable. Build the same top with the same lay-up and you would not likely be able to hear a difference.

Still a "tough sell" in most cases?
2000 guitars a year ??? (I would need a bigger shop and a marketing team!!!

JM

John, you forgot to answer if you could build 2000 guitars a year with your home made wood and carbon molds. Look, I can see why a guy who is still tweaking his design would not want to spend 10, 20 of 50 K for a quality mold, but given that Rainsong, CA, and even Blackbird use expensive aluminum molds, I have to think there must be something to it.

Three questions:

1. Do the finished products of air cured cf endure the same temperature extremes as high heat productions?

2. The explanations in this thread do not explain how a guitar could be made in one piece, i.e. have sides/back/top/neck all produced as one part. How is that done?

John--do you sell guitars and if so do you have a web site?

[BananasCentral]

Originally Posted by AndyFrank

... with your home made wood and carbon molds. Look, I can see why a guy who is still tweaking his design would not want to spend 10, 20 of 50 K for a quality mold, but given that Rainsong, CA, and even Blackbird use expensive aluminum molds, I have to think there must be something to it.

justification for the price charged ?

I'm not sure what "home made wood and carbon molds" means, or if you have any experience in mold work.

molds, tool & die etc is not a new process and if John was a die maker by trade then he should certainly have a handle on it

Everyday people pay too much for things they can't make themselves.

Yet another question. Why hasn't the CF guitar market been flooded with imports? The U.S. has moved from 1 major cf guitar company to 4, with others sneaking in at the edges--it seems like such an emerging market would have attracted imported clones.

[BananasCentral]

Originally Posted by EvanB

Yet another question. Why hasn't the CF guitar market been flooded with imports? The U.S. has moved from 1 major cf guitar company to 4, with others sneaking in at the edges--it seems like such an emerging market would have attracted imported clones.

I'd thought of this right off as what would keep US makers from jumping in.
A few years ago I'd produced a niche device for sometime before being completely over run by the Chinese.
If I'd done any serious development it'd have all been for naught.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by EvanB

Yet another question. Why hasn't the CF guitar market been flooded with imports? The U.S. has moved from 1 major cf guitar company to 4, with others sneaking in at the edges--it seems like such an emerging market would have attracted imported clones.

Actually two of the six brands currently available are in fact imports, Journey and Emerald are both built outside the US. The four US builder are Rainsong, CA, and Blackbird, McPherson (Kevin Michael). My guess is Peavey, who now owns CA, would have already moved production to China if there was a benefit, so perhaps there isn't.

[Doubleneck]

Journey is the only company now making CF in China. They have a good price point so it will be interesting to see. I heard bottom line is the market isn't big enough for major importers to get excited about

[perttime]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Actually two of the five brands currently available are in fact imports, Journey and Emerald. The three US builder are Rainsong, CA, and Blackbird.

I suppose there's no US dealer for Leviora now?
Leviora looks more like a custom or semi-custom shop, though.

[John Morciglio]

As to the temperature comparison between room temp cures and pre-pregs;

It depends on their product used? Can't say what their working or service
temps are?

The 2 resins that I work with, (room temp. cure and the Boeing Mil-spec, high temp resin);
Service temp for the room cure is 285 degree Far. The "HT Mil-spec", is higher but I could not find the product sheet in my books. (I think 40-50 degrees)
Used when I want to make something fast. 3-4 hours under infra-red lights and it is cured enough to de-mold.

The finish/paint would melt at 200 degrees.

To Andy???
Nobody asked if "I" could build 2000 units with my "home-made" molds???

Lets see; 40hrs per/week at 50 weeks per year =
ONE GUITAR EVERY HOUR!
2 shifts, 1 unit every 2 hrs. 3 shifts 1 for every 3 hrs.

It is likely the high mold costs quoted were from an "insider" that has direct knowledge?

Probably would cover 10+ sets of molds. Your not going to mass produce anything without a high quantity of molds and a large work force/factory?
Grew up in Flint MI. Can you say "assembly line"?
Might as well work for Ford or GM.

Have no desire to own or purchase any guitar(s) that are mass produced.

Only "brand-name" guitars I have left are an early 90's Ovation Elite and a custom-shop matching 5-string bass w/34" scale.
They tried to talk me into a carbon (Adamas) top on the bass when I ordered it. SHOULD have listened as the string force keeps pulling the bridge :-(

When I joined I was trying to figure out how/what to say/post, without saying
"I build customs"

Seems to be a very friendly and informative forum.
A lot of forums can and do get nasty with a lot of negative BS.

Back to the OT;

Carbon work is very labor intensive.
A lot of hands on work that can not be done by machines.
Plek machine, and probably a semi-automated paint spraying system?

JM

[John Morciglio]

Steve, awesome collection you have listed.

Should have contacted you when I still lived in MI. as we went/go to Ohio all the time. (will be rolling through in late July)
Sought out as many players and collectors that I could find, for feedback and comparisons.

Re-located to Denver. Used to live here in the 80's

JM

[John Morciglio]

Originally Posted by EvanB

Three questions:

1. Do the finished products of air cured cf endure the same temperature extremes as high heat productions?

2. The explanations in this thread do not explain how a guitar could be made in one piece, i.e. have sides/back/top/neck all produced as one part. How is that done?

John--do you sell guitars and if so do you have a web site?

Answered #1 above

To make a "1 piece" guitar;

It would have to be a "closed" (also referred to as "Blind" ;-) mold.

A bladder or "lost wax casting" could be used for the internal pressure/support.

"IF" (to me it's a BIG IF) this is actually being done by a builder?
I don't get it or see any benefit other than pulling an almost finished product from a single step process??

Super car and Formula 1 chassis are referred to as "Mono" or one piece structures, after many parts are bonded together?

PM me or "google" my name.

I thought I would wait to donate (so I can link a site etc.)
Since carbon is not that popular among traditional musicians.
I also build wood and wood/carbon hybrid guitars.

JM