How to tell which time signature?

shawlie · #1 09-04-2009, 11:17 AM

It might be a basic question, but I still don't quite understand it and would appreciate any insight.

For fun, I was tabbing out a song I made in Guitar Pro (I bought it a week or two ago and it's a lot of fun!) The simple songs I do were easy enough, but I had another one with a slightly different rhythm to it.

I knew it had four beats to the measure, and started tabbing it out in 4/4. It has kind of a syncopated bass to it and it was going fine until I got to a part that had more of a straight rhythm. I spent hours and couldn't get the measure to add up or sound right. The next day I tried the same section in 2/4 and it went fine. So I had to re-write everything in the new meter.

Before going through that agian (and doing something like "I bet this one's in 2/4 too" only to find it's not), is there an easy way to tell when to use 4/4, 2/4 or 2/2? I know the one has four beats, the other only two - but how do you know when the measure's done after two beats and not after four? And how does 2/4 sound different to 4/4? Reading music goes ok, I just don't know how to decide which time signature to use for things that aren't written down yet.

Any and all help is welcome.

ljguitar · #2 09-04-2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawlie

...is there an easy way to tell when to use 4/4, 2/4 or 2/2?

Hi shawlie...
I plot/jot the chord progression and count the measures in each subdivision of a song, and see how many measures I end up with in each section, and if it's too many or too few I conjecture that it's a different meter.

If you are counting in 2/4 and end up with 32 measures in a verse - that's a lot. Most (and it's a qualified most) writers write verses with 4 lines and 4 measures to the line...and it's sure a good place to start considering.

You really didn't touch on other time signatures...6/8 (2 beats to a measure subdivided by triplets) or 12/8 (often 4 beats per measure subdivided into triplets)...then there is 3/4. And then there are pieces with 5, 7, 9, 11 etc beats per measure.

Another thing to consider is when notating a piece for ''swing'' the dotted eighth & sixteenth are interpreted by the musicians as triplet-feel. Marking it with the word ''swing'' in the tempo section is a good guide and saves time, because a lot of ''swing'' is triplet-feel driven but annotated in 4/4 or common time signature. It means you don't have to try to annotate the swung parts in some complicated fashion...

shawlie · #3 09-04-2009, 01:28 PM

Hey, thanks for the idea about counting and seeing if the numbers make sense. I took a look at what I had tabbed out - the music for the verse is repeated twice and adds up to 16 measures all together, so I suspect that'd be correct? It sounded right in 4/4 as well, up to a certain point - so too few measures would also probably mean it's not written properly as well?

Thanks for the extra information about the 3/4, 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 (etc.) as well. The first things I tabbed out were all in 3/4 and one in 6/8 - those times seem to have such a strong feeling to them it didn't give me a lot of trouble. Though I suppose 12/8 could be a little tricky as well - I have a couple of songs that might be in 12/8, but I'm not sure (they use a lot of triplets, but I'm not sure if they use enough to warrant 12/8 time - I'll try and figure that one out).

And that swing notation - thanks, too for the information ( I suspect that might be tied into the 12/8 as well, and will try to work some songs out and see).

I sometimes think I understand it, but when it comes to writing it down it's like I don't understand it at all. I suppose it's like passive knowledge (I can understand some languages I can't really speak cause I hear them a lot), but writing this stuff down seems to help a lot about understanding it all better.

Again, thanks for the idea to see how many measures there are and the general guidline for the numbers. That's helped a lot!

cotten · #4 09-04-2009, 02:42 PM

Larry's right. If it worked out to 16 measures, the odds are that it follows the pattern of 4/4 that he suggested.

Now, about the part(s) that didn't seem to fit. Without seeing the music, this is only a guess, but sometimes a writer will add a fermata at the end of a phrase or section, then fail to handle the pickup notes to the next correctely. Standard notation is going to want every measure to have the equivalent of those four quarter notes. Pickup beats are sometimes problematic for folks.

Another possibility is that you've got a brief change to another time signature. While 4/4 is your primary one, you could have inserted a 2/4 measure/section (fairly common), or one in 3/4 (less common but not exactly unusual).

Then comes tempo changes, everything from a ritardando or accelerando to a rubato, or an actual new tempo. From what you've said, I doubt these are what you're running into - you'd already know these.

The truth is that there are often several options for notating a rhythm - as long as the next player can figure out the sound you are looking for, you're good to go. If you like, you could record your piece and post a link to it. Folks here could probably map it out for you, time signature wise, in short order.

cotten

shawlie · #5 09-05-2009, 04:00 AM

Cotten - hey, thank for all the ideas! I was thinking about a couple of the things you suggest (particularly the time signature change and possibly the change in tempo), and tried the time change, but couldn't get it to work out right.

The fermata is a little beyond me - but I did have trouble with a couple of other songs that tie the last note into the next measure on the treble strings. Took me ages to realize it either needed a tie or a rest in the next measure (which I first did, but later thought that probably wasn't exactly what was going on - becuase the note is still ringing). But things like fermata - I probably wouldn't be aware if there was one, and it's things like that that make it seem a lot harder than it looks to tab things out.

And the part that gave me trouble did seem somehow faster than the rest of the song, to play anyway. So I thought either tempo change or time signature change. But I could play along with a metronome, so I suppose that means it's one tempo the whole way through.

I recorded the area that was giving me trouble, and have the tab of it too. It's measure 16, and I think it's right the way it's written. It's now in 2/4 and I think it's right? It sounds ok on the guitar pro playback, but a little "stiff" - no sure if it's becuase it's just the computer program or there's something slightly off in the tab.

The guitar part (slowly): guitar-tab

I really appreciate all the advice and ideas. I like tabbing things out and tried TablEdit quite a while, only to give up becuase I could never get it right. So I forgot all about the music score and just did the tab for a while. But I decided I really wanted to learn it and although it's fun, there's still so many things that don't make a lot of sense. The Help in Guitar Pro has almost no music theory so I got a music book, too - it explains how to read, but not how to write. So it's great getting help about these things on here.
Thanks again!

rjacobs · #6 09-06-2009, 08:16 PM

Shawlie, this rhythm is very hard to read. In the top voice, try splitting the eighth notes into two sixteenth notes and then tying them together. That might help you figure out what's going on. Alternatively, try rewriting it again in 4/4 and double all the note lengths.

TBman · #7 09-06-2009, 09:22 PM

How the heck do you get the score in your post. I could never figure out how to do that.

ljguitar · #8 09-06-2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBman

How the heck do you get the score in your post. I could never figure out how to do that.

Hi Barry...
Convert it to a .jpg image

ScottAllyn · #9 09-06-2009, 10:26 PM

Shawlie, I don't have any advice to offer in regards to tabbing but I just wanted to say that I really liked that little sound clip - the song sounds great! I hope you share the tab when you're done (and a full length recording).

Alan Porton · #10 09-07-2009, 12:36 AM

Tab is ridiculous.......read the notes...

TBman · #11 09-07-2009, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Barry...
Convert it to a .jpg image

Duh, thanks LJ, LOL.

Another thing that is interesting is how the treble stems are separate from the bass stems and a quarter note is right before am 8th, things I can't get my GuitarPro to do (v 5)

shawlie · #12 09-07-2009, 07:18 AM

Hey, thanks a lot for al the help and suggestions - I think I got it now!

rjacobs - Your suggestion was a lot of help. I feel kind of stupid now - when I first did it in 4/4, I used the same note values I later used in 2/4, so each measure was twice as long, and the one measure just wouldn't add up. Doing it in 4/4 with longer notes I hadn't tried, but did those measures now and I think it looks more normal:

Really, it was a lot of help and I think I see how to use the two time signatures a little better now. Well, I think so - will have to see how the next songs go to see if I understand it, of course.

TBman - I have version 5 too, you should be able to get the two voices to work (the bass and treble). If you go to "Edit", at the bottom you should see "voices". There you have the option which voice you want to work on. If you have the "gray inactive voice" setting on, it makes it easier to tell which one's which. The shortcuts are easier - ctrl 1 for the treble, ctrl 2 for the bass, ctrl g to turn the gray option on and off.

I think I had tabbed out 6 songs before I figured out how that worked, and really love that option (because it makes more sense for guitar).

ScottAllyn - thanks very much, it was fun making it up and trying to write it down. The 2/4 (first) version I have finished as a pdf (tab), but will work out the better version soon (the metronome says "190", but that's for the 4/4 version, it should be around 90 I think for the 2/4 version). I posted this song (with my wife singing) last week in the other section, but if you want to hear it, it's here: Time to Go

Again, thanks for all the help, it makes tabbing things a lot more fun!

Ryler · #13 09-13-2009, 06:46 PM

Shawlie,

I just wanted you to know that I printed out the tab and this is in heavy rotation right now. Very lovely. Handwritten above the title is "Written by Shawlie." That is how you want to be known as a composer, yes?

shawlie · #14 09-14-2009, 06:49 AM

Hey, Ryler - thanks, that's very nice of you! It's very nice to hear someone thought it was nice enough to play. And also feel free to change, add, alter it all you want, by all means.

I only put this stuff on the net for fun, I don't want to worry about protecting things or stuff (otherwise I wouldn't put anything up, and I'd get bored...). It only makes me happy when someone mails me that they took the time to learn one of the folk arrangements I made on my site, that's all the credit I need.

Thanks again for the nice reply!