Approximating MS Sound

[Bob1131]

I like how Mid-Side recordings sound but I don't have the proper equipment and can't afford to purchase any right now. So, I am experimenting with mic placement to try to approximate the sound of M-S. In this short guitar clip I used two super cardioid mics as the sides (instead of a figure 8) and a LDC for the "mid" mic as pictured below.

What do you think of the sound? Does it have M-S qualities or is it far from it?

[IMG][/IMG]

[Doug Young]

I think it sounds nice, but exaggerated in width. With MS, the sides end up being much lower than the middle. Maybe pull down the side mics a hair?

[redavide]

I'm getting the level on the left channel significantly higher than the right.

[Bob Womack]

Vacation is over so I put it up on the good monitors here at the studio.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think it sounds nice, but exaggerated in width. With MS, the sides end up being much lower than the middle. Maybe pull down the side mics a hair?

Agree here, the center image isn't as strong as Mid/Side typically is.

Originally Posted by redavide

I'm getting the level on the left channel significantly higher than the right.

I checked it on the meters and it appears to be equal in volume, however, there is more high-end info on the left than the right, causing some "steering" of the perception.

It has a nice tonal balance, by the way. I hope that helps.

Bob

[Bob1131]

Thanks Doug, Redivide and Bob! I will make some adjustments to the setup and try again. This, to me, is the fun part of home recording...experimentation! I really appreciate you listening and giving me your opinions because it is your "experienced" ears that I trust more than my own!

[Scott Whigham]

Sounds good - good playing, good overall tones for sure. What if you changed the setup a bit so that the dynamics weren't so spread apart? I don't know if that's technically feasible but it would help with the blending (so that the right side wasn't "all low end" and the right was "all top end").

It's an interesting experiment - neat idea. I will say that, when I read your quote about how you liked the sound of MS, I thought, "What's he mean, I wonder?" Does MS have a "sound"? I guess I just haven't spent enough time A/Bing all of the different techniques to be able to associate MS with a specific sound. If anyone has any tracks that could point me in that direction, I'd love to check it out. I feel like I can pick out a spaced pair or ORTF/NOS but I'm not so sure that I could tell it was MS w/o collapsing it to mono.

[Doug Young]

To me, the "sound" of MS is like XY, but with a remarkable stability of the center image, and a nice "focus" and natural balance. I doubt I could listen to someone else's track and identify it as MS vs XY, it's more of a thing you notice when recording yourself, the ease of dialing in a good stereo image, and so on. Of course an undecoded track is easy to spot and hear, but once it's been processed, it just sounds like nice stereo.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

To me, the "sound" of MS is like XY, but with a remarkable stability of the center image, and a nice "focus" and natural balance. I doubt I could listen to someone else's track and identify it as MS vs XY, it's more of a thing you notice when recording yourself, the ease of dialing in a good stereo image, and so on. Of course an undecoded track is easy to spot and hear, but once it's been processed, it just sounds like nice stereo.

Hi Doug...

The one time I think I can spot it is in live situations where musicians are moving around on stage.

I did a mid-side recording of a well choreographed Bluegrass group, and under the phones you could feel the banjo player or mandolin player moving from left or right toward the mic. The banjo 'lived' in the back row and you could hear/feel him making his way through the group and into place then returning 'home'.

They usually began their solos a couple beats before they were settled in place so it 'felt' like they were moving from behind you to the left/right and stepping into the center to play their solos.

It was very gradual and natural.

Something I tried with them was running dual figure-8 with the live audience being the back side of the mid mic. It really brought a new dimension to mid-side in that specific application (rowdy crowd with lots of interaction).

Other than that my observations parallel yours, particularly in regards to the center focus point being more stable with mid-side.

[Bob1131]

Okay, I discovered that I had a by-passed filter engaged on the right dynamic mic but not the left, so that accounts for the lop-sided tone distribution. They are now the same. Also, I turned up the mid mic some and tilted the dynamics inward a little to narrow the stereo field. The result is here: Mic Setup Trial #2

I think the result is much more centered...maybe too much?

BTW - I apologize for the sloppy playing in both clips...I was more interested in the recording than the playing so I didn't work at getting a flawless take.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Bob1131

I like how Mid-Side recordings sound but I don't have the proper equipment and can't afford to purchase any right now. So, I am experimenting with mic placement to try to approximate the sound of M-S. In this short guitar clip I used two super cardioid mics as the sides (instead of a figure 8) and a LDC for the "mid" mic as pictured below.

What do you think of the sound? Does it have M-S qualities or is it far from it?

Try getting the three mic capsules closer to each other, e.g., turn the dynamic mics nearly 180 degrees.

Are you summing the two dynamic tracks into one track, then duplicating that summed track, then flipping the polarity of those two tracks and then panning them 100% left and right?

Also, you might consider removing that foam behind the mid mic.

[redavide]

Sounds nice! Definitely an improvement over the first one. How centered it is is subjective -- trust your own ears (if you dare) . . .

[Bob1131]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Try getting the three mic capsules closer to each other, e.g., turn the dynamic mics nearly 180 degrees.

Are you summing the two dynamic tracks into one track, then duplicating that summed track, then flipping the polarity of those two tracks and then panning them 100% left and right?

Also, you might consider removing that foam behind the mid mic.

Sdelsolray, all three mics are recorded onto two tracks, the dynamics panned hard left and right with the LDC centered. The room is not treated, so the foam helps minimize the room sound that gets captured by that mic. I prefer as little room sound as possible.

I moved the mics inward for the second clip that I posted in comment #9.

[Bob1131]

Originally Posted by redavide

Sounds nice! Definitely an improvement over the first one. How centered it is is subjective -- trust your own ears (if you dare) . . .

Thanks...and I only trust my ears to a point and that it why I am asking folks here for their perceptions.

[Bob Womack]

The center image is up and that is nice, the spectrum is matched between L and R, and that is nice. The L-R balance in terms of volume is nice. The sound stage is coherent, and that is also nice.

Nitpick: I'm getting a little steering to the left, probably now either a phase or timing issue. The question now would be whether you are centered up to the mics in such a way that the center of the image is centered or whether the L-R pair are balanced. To check, run a recording with the center mic off and check the L-R balance for volume equality. Get those two balanced up. Now, get a ruler and protractor and check that the angles of the L and R mics relative to the C mic are mirror images and that they are equidistant from the center mic. No? Fix. Yes? Now do a recording and listen for L-R steering. If you hear any, adjust your seating position to remove it.

Voile'!

Bob

[mccallum]

Wow! Bob- I wasn't sure that I would be able to tell the difference between the two recordings but - wow. The one thing I really enjoy about AGF is the immense amounts of knowledge.

Now I have some new projects to work on- learning how to mimic the M-S technique as well, which a few days ago I didn't even know existed.

Assuming we make it past the 21st party- I am requesting a Bob in studio appearance.