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  #61  
Old 11-23-2016, 05:25 PM
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iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is offline
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Default Some thoughts...

Personally, I enjoy seeing subtle, asymmetric signs indicating the master's hands have been there or the natural figure in the woods used in the creation of a guitar. This character reinforces the artisan made, bespoke nature of the instrument which distinguishes them to me from regulated aesthetic of factory guitars. The artisan guitars have subtle, yet beautiful imperfections in details, thinner finishes that reveal the character beneath and subtle transitions in hand carved parts. I have custom instruments that fit both the "factory perfect" and artisan "execution paradigms", but I feel more emotionally connected with the less regulated guitars as one of a kind instruments.

I look forward to seeing this project come to life on your bench...
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  #62  
Old 11-23-2016, 05:31 PM
dneal dneal is offline
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Originally Posted by Howard Klepper View Post
Thanks for your insights, Derek. But I can't accept that wabi-sabi is only about an appreciation for things that are aged and worn (and your discussion about pens indicates that you don't, either). Every source I have found talks about creating new craft from a wabi-sabi aesthetic. If that is not "application," then we are quibbling about semantics.

What I'm doing may indeed be more shibui than wabi-sabi, although I expect that wabi-sabi has interpretations that are broad enough to cover it. There is next to nothing in print in English about shibui craft. But if that is what I'm doing, so be it.
Admittedly I'm no expert, and I think those raised in Western culture (myself included) have an almost impossible time truly understanding Japanese or other Asian culture (and that gets into a whole philosophy and psychology of language discussion...). Instead, it seems that "pop" interpretations become the standard in Western circles - Feng Shui being one of the more recent fads. That problem of different culture is of course not isolated to an East/West divide. I spent 10 years in Germany, and although I understand what a German perspective is; I still don't understand why.

My understanding is that "wabi" roughly translates (today) to "simplicity", and "sabi" translates to "impermanence". Notions of "imperfection" reside with both terms, whether that imperfection is because of lack of skill or simple mistake in the making of something or the property of the material; or if that imperfection is due to wear, deterioration, oxidation, etc... Philosophically, I think it is the Asian appreciation for aging - to overgeneralize. It's been at least 25 years since I was on a "zen kick", so I'm probably getting a lot of things wrong for that reason too!

Anyway, my point wasn't to assert that wabi-sabi was only focused on wear/aging/impermanence/whatever; but that it seemed to me that many were overly focused on applying, inducing or even emphasizing "mistakes". I also felt obligated to point out that even in Japanese art, "mistakes" or wear are induced. They have their own version of "relic'd"... I suspect that traditionalists frown on it, and realize that it has been induced. But hey, some like Bruce's very natural job "relic-ing" a guitar and some don't.

I also think the variety of technique used on the pens is very cool - and an easy way to see many popular Japanese art forms in one place, applied to one item type.

Regardless of all that, I still am waiting with bated breath to see where your thoughts take you with your guitar.
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  #63  
Old 11-23-2016, 05:45 PM
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Howard--Such a great post! I too have wondered (worried) about the far swing toward a certain extreme of visual perfection, or maybe desirability, in guitar making. Some guitars, esp. with CNC-ed necks for example, seem so sterile to me. And some of the truly great builders who let a little of the "hand of the maker" show through, seem more real.

I think there's maybe been a little of the Wabi-Sabi ethic creeping in, as in the use of spalted rosettes, and even sapwood on backs and on the edge of tuners--all of which seem to say "Nature's irregularities can be more lovely than human manipulation". Maybe they are all a step in a good direction.

Perhaps there is a separate Wabi-Sabi dimension in 1) The materials selected; and 2) How the materials are handled and controlled. If so, perhaps in the first category, this sunken sitka top from a dock in Alaska I believe, had an interesting pattern from worms that had burrowed into it. What an image!

Richard, refresh my mind, who built the Toredo-wormed top, Sitka yes?
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  #64  
Old 11-23-2016, 07:27 PM
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Richard, refresh my mind, who built the Toredo-wormed top, Sitka yes?
That Ruben Forsland of JOI has...but maybe not this one.
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  #65  
Old 11-23-2016, 10:23 PM
Richard Mott Richard Mott is offline
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Yes, that guitar was built by Reuben Forsland at JOI. The wormy Sitka top was from a boom log in Alaska, with back and sides from Vancouver Island Apple wood, built as a testament to his father's struggles. A very moving story behind it.
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  #66  
Old 11-23-2016, 10:50 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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Back stripe of snakewood. Another less than perfect piece of a premium wood. I have a bunch of scraps of this in the shop.

An interesting thing about the woods that are prized for their figure is that everyone wants the expensive highly figured pieces, and hardly anyone wants the ones with middling or low figure. That enables me to do things like pick up a curly koa set that is structurally better than a high figure one inexpensively because it has just fair curl, and build one of my "Performance" guitars with it for no upcharge. And no one wants pieces of anything with cracks. In the case of this snakewood there were checks that prevented getting full length and width binding strips, although the figure was pretty good. Great for sawing a narrow back stripe.

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  #67  
Old 11-24-2016, 12:19 AM
Carey Carey is offline
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Default Wabi-Sabi

It's good to see this thread, and I also look forward to seeing this instrument
take shape.

A book I've found helpful is Leonard Koren's Wabi-Sabi..., a little book with
good information imo, and a calm presentation.


-CW
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  #68  
Old 11-24-2016, 08:44 AM
SJ VanSandt SJ VanSandt is offline
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I love this entire thread, even the bit of bickering back and forth at first: that seems like Internet equivalent of wabi sabi (or is it wah, be sobby?). I, for one, would not hesitate to buy a guitar built with with this aesthetic - especially the one you are showing us, Howard! Keep up the great work, everyone!
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  #69  
Old 11-24-2016, 09:02 AM
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It's a challenge for a person of a calling to an exacting expectation from himself to temper it in the manner and spirit of Wabi-Sabi.

A plain Jane, crafted with the eye for a simple aesthetic, the hands to yield longevity and the ear to give it a sound that sings its own praises will be a whole other kind of study.

Personally, having run the courses of acoustic guitars and settled for the non-metallic sound of a nylon string guitar, my ideal would be a resonant box, 100% natural materials equipped with simple machines. I'm describing whatever comes to mind and not necessarily in the conventional styles. The world of the so-called cross-over guitar is still in gestation.
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  #70  
Old 11-24-2016, 11:03 AM
dekutree64 dekutree64 is offline
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Originally Posted by dneal View Post
Admittedly I'm no expert, and I think those raised in Western culture (myself included) have an almost impossible time truly understanding Japanese or other Asian culture (and that gets into a whole philosophy and psychology of language discussion...). Instead, it seems that "pop" interpretations become the standard in Western circles - Feng Shui being one of the more recent fads. That problem of different culture is of course not isolated to an East/West divide. I spent 10 years in Germany, and although I understand what a German perspective is; I still don't understand why.
Yeah, pop interpretations do irritate me. But I'm not so sure about being impossible to understand. Every cultural philosophy has its good and bad points, including the one each of us was raised in. I think it mostly comes from what things we receive positive or negative feedback for as children. For me, the best way to understand other philosophies is to imagine a different mental context where different qualities were encouraged and discouraged.

Quote:
My understanding is that "wabi" roughly translates (today) to "simplicity", and "sabi" translates to "impermanence". Notions of "imperfection" reside with both terms, whether that imperfection is because of lack of skill or simple mistake in the making of something or the property of the material; or if that imperfection is due to wear, deterioration, oxidation, etc... Philosophically, I think it is the Asian appreciation for aging - to overgeneralize. It's been at least 25 years since I was on a "zen kick", so I'm probably getting a lot of things wrong for that reason too!
I think lack of skill is what makes the difference between the "home made" look versus wabi-sabi and the like.

Mistakes can be good or bad. Sometimes they inspire an idea that you wouldn't have had otherwise, but other times they should be fixed.

I think the real skill is knowing when to quit. Recognizing that while you could refine something to technical perfection, it's even better as it is.

I'd recommend watching some old Bob Ross paintings on youtube. He calls mistakes "happy accidents", and people who thoroughly mix their paints to a uniform color "mud mixers" Better to leave some variation and let it create detail for you. Same as us woodworkers, who can use imperfect pieces of wood, which contain more detail in the grain than we could ever make out of little inlay pieces
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  #71  
Old 11-24-2016, 11:57 AM
dneal dneal is offline
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Originally Posted by dekutree64 View Post
Yeah, pop interpretations do irritate me. But I'm not so sure about being impossible to understand. Every cultural philosophy has its good and bad points, including the one each of us was raised in. I think it mostly comes from what things we receive positive or negative feedback for as children. For me, the best way to understand other philosophies is to imagine a different mental context where different qualities were encouraged and discouraged.
I'm not making an argument so much as sharing my thoughts, but I'll point out that you've changed my meaning to an absolute, which I didn't use. The qualifier "almost" is important. Maybe "can't completely understand" would have been a better phrase than "almost impossible".

Anyway, I'll use my Germany experience as an example. Germans hate mistakes, and find others committing them to be funny. A "Geistfahrer" (literally "ghost-driver") is someone who is driving the wrong way on the Autobahn. The combination of someone making a mistake with something they take very seriously (driving) makes for some serious belly-laughs.

I was buying bread at the Backerei, and the girl behind the counter fat-fingered the total. 3 euros worth of bread was rung up as 300 euros. I looked at the display and her, she noted the error and chuckled. An older lady behind me also noticed it, and could barely contain herself.

I'm not German. I understand that they find this sort of thing hilarious, but I don't completely understand why. I don't think I ever will.
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  #72  
Old 11-25-2016, 08:35 AM
riverrummed riverrummed is offline
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It took me four years to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child. Pablo Picasso

I always found Picasso's (as a Western man) grasping of the concepts we are trying to discuss to cut to the heart of the matter.
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  #73  
Old 11-25-2016, 11:19 AM
Jobe Jobe is offline
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I may not totally grasp the Wabi-Sabi concept but I hope this relates somehow. Years ago I used to sell for a small porcelain company that made things like bowls and pitchers and tea pots and the like. What you want to come out of the kiln and what actually appeared were two different things. Every piece was rated a 'first' a 'second' a 'third' or junk. The 'firsts' were sold to the wholesale store accounts throughout the country. My job was to load the seconds and thirds in a van to sell at mostly upscale craft shows in the northeast. The company had been doing this for many years before I got involved and had quite a following at the annual shows. What I noticed was people flocked to the display year after year to see what interesting pieces were available. Most could run to a store and get a 'perfect piece'. But they all seemed to like 'unique'. Some folks already had four of our tea pots for instance. But they would add to their collection because each one being 'imperfect' somehow made the piece special and individual. I get that. I can't wait for this unique guitar to find its' own. Good luck with the build!

Last edited by Jobe; 11-25-2016 at 12:07 PM.
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  #74  
Old 11-25-2016, 12:01 PM
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Definitely an interesting thread. Discussion of philosophy runs parallel to discussions about religion and politics, tough to see how differing viewpoints overlap. Interpretation of philosophy in the physical world can take many shapes depending on perspective. Perfection on one level is a human defined condition. On one level, everything can be considered perfect. On one level, everything can be considered the same. On one level everything can be considered imperfect......on another level everything can be considered different.

Some people obsess about perfection, exactness, neatness etc etc to the extreme of OCD behavior that can interfere with functional usefulness. Heading toward the other extreme people tend to rationalize mistakes either because of laziness or fear of entering the world of the hard work demanded by exacting attention to detail. Wabi-sabi should not be a rationalization for mistakes or lack of skill. If it is, would anyone here want a Wabi-sabi surgeon performing an operation on you? Same with luthery. Is a wabi-sabi guitar a piece of art or a functional working tool? If a luthier does quality work and used to getting 5-10K or more for their guitars, would they expect to get that for a wabi-sabi guitar because of it's aetsthetic uniqueness or because it produces the kinds of sounds that cannot be rivaled by lower price range instruments? If it doesn't would luthiers resonating with this philosophy be satisfied with a less than perfect price for their instruments?

-Jim
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  #75  
Old 11-25-2016, 05:10 PM
Jeff Scott Jeff Scott is offline
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Originally Posted by rustystill View Post
Definitely an interesting thread. Discussion of philosophy runs parallel to discussions about religion and politics, tough to see how differing viewpoints overlap. Interpretation of philosophy in the physical world can take many shapes depending on perspective. Perfection on one level is a human defined condition. On one level, everything can be considered perfect. On one level, everything can be considered the same. On one level everything can be considered imperfect......on another level everything can be considered different.

Some people obsess about perfection, exactness, neatness etc etc to the extreme of OCD behavior that can interfere with functional usefulness. Heading toward the other extreme people tend to rationalize mistakes either because of laziness or fear of entering the world of the hard work demanded by exacting attention to detail. Wabi-sabi should not be a rationalization for mistakes or lack of skill...

-Jim
This reminded me of an article Ron Wisner wrote years ago on real world sharpness in camera lenses and the final print made from them. Sometime people get overly obsessive over small details that don't really matter to the big picture, so to speak, photographically. Go to an art museum or gallery and you can tell which viewers of photographic art are photographers, themselves. They will be the ones with their eyeballs and inch away from the print (guilty! ) I love photography due to it being both an aesthetic and highly technical art form. Over the years I gravitated from a 35mm camera up through large format view cameras, partly as the bigger camera offered better real world sharpness in the final image, and because it slowed me down, making my work more contemplative, and deliberate. No delete buttons on black & white film, and it takes longer to make a great photograph, not point-n-shooting here. But another thing about photography as an art form (nature/landscape/architecture for me, primarily) is that I had to accept what the world was offering me to photograph. I may find the "perfect" landscape to make a photograph of, but, shoot!!!, there's a power line running through the upper background, or a beer can among the fallen leaves next to the waterfall. I have learned to accept that as what the world is really like. Is that wabi-sabi?
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