Build Thread - Kraut OM

[CoolerKing]

Originally Posted by JonBarclay

I get crippling stage fright, probably a leftover from years of unwilling solo violin performances at school

This sounds familiar. Did you study the Suzuki method? I'm left handed but play the guitar by fretting left and picking right. I really don't like the violin and in some ways wish I had done piano but the two things it gave me was the ability to play guitar as most others do and also an appreciation for classical music.

Now that we are back on topic, really looking forward to more pix.

[JonBarclay]

Originally Posted by matthewpartrick

This sounds familiar. Did you study the Suzuki method? I'm left handed but play the guitar by fretting left and picking right. I really don't like the violin and in some ways wish I had done piano but the two things it gave me was the ability to play guitar as most others do and also an appreciation for classical music.

Now that we are back on topic, really looking forward to more pix.

Not the Suzuki method, no... although a Japanese friend of mine did, and really struggled with sight reading as a result! I gave up the violin at 18 (piano too I'm afraid!), as we were all pushed SO hard at school that the fun went right out of it. One bonus (probably because I started at 4 yrs old) was it did leave me with perfect pitch, which is handy for learning pieces by ear... however, I also twitch uncontrollably on hearing the briefest excerpt of The Messiah, which can be embarrassing

Meanwhile, back on topic, so am I I'm trying not to pester Ray too much for pictures... but the whole process is so addictive I'm struggling not to!

Jon

[JonBarclay]

And here's the next set

A terrifying Medieval torture device, possibly also used for the construction of lattice bracing:
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Completed lattice, about to be glued to the ziricote back:


Ray's vacuum jig, in full effect, set to the background of the most obsessively neat working environment I've ever seen:


This is getting good

Jon

[billgennaro]

Jon,

Do all of Ray's guitars come with latticed braced backs? Or is this something that you ordered? If you did, indeed, special order it this way what was your thought process behind it?

[iim7V7IM7]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

Jon,

Do all of Ray's guitars come with latticed braced backs? Or is this something that you ordered? If you did, indeed, special order it this way what was your thought process behind it?

For the most part, nearly every build that I have seen made by Ray over the last 4-5 years have lattice braced backs. I have seen some ladder braced Kraut's, but they seem to be more the exception.

[Marcus Wong]

Is there any particular theory with regards to the Lattice vs. Ladder back bracing?

[iim7V7IM7]

Originally Posted by Marcus Wong

Is there any particular theory with regards to the Lattice vs. Ladder back bracing?

I believe lattice-braced backs are trying to lighten the overall weight of the back. The lattice bracing pattern provides additional structure to allow the luthier to thin backset beyond what 3 or 4 ladder braces can support. I cannot speak to the sonic contribution that results. Like all things guitar, it is about the sum of everything.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

I believe lattice-braced backs are trying to lighten the overall weight of the back. The lattice bracing pattern provides additional structure to allow the luthier to thin backset beyond what 3 or 4 ladder braces can support. I cannot speak to the sonic contribution that results. Like all things guitar, it is about the sum of everything.

The bracing looks to be making the back stiffer, possibly so its not acting as a passive radiator. My pretty wild guess is this would help towards a cleaner and more projecting sound because there's less destructive interference and less of the transmitted acoustic energy from the sound board being absorbed by the back to dampen it.

[Marcus Wong]

Hmmm very interesting. I've never considered the repercussions of back braces before haha your theories seem quite sound. I suppose it would be timbre specific too as too which back brace to utilise? Haha

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

For the most part, nearly every build that I have seen made by Ray over the last 4-5 years have lattice braced backs. I have seen some ladder braced Kraut's, but they seem to be more the exception.

Thanks for the reply. I have played a few of Ray's guitars but I never noticed the back bracing before.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by Marcus Wong

Hmmm very interesting. I've never considered the repercussions of back braces before haha your theories seem quite sound. I suppose it would be timbre specific too as too which back brace to utilise? Haha

How you do the back has an influence on the sound I think. I remember one of the luthiers saying how a stiff back throws the sound envelope in a more foward and focussed way to the audience and if you do a more flexible back it's more wrapped around the player. If Ray has done the back thinner the player will still get good higher frequency feedback because they'll leak out the back better. bass is omnidirectional so the player gets that anyway but probably more focussed with that bracing pattern. After hearing Mau's recordings I'd love to have a Kraut ...haunting!

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by stringjunky

The bracing looks to be making the back stiffer, possibly so its not acting as a passive radiator. My pretty wild guess is this would help towards a cleaner and more projecting sound because there's less destructive interference and less of the transmitted acoustic energy from the sound board being absorbed by the back to dampen it.

As I understand it, Ray Kraut is a disciple of Ervin Somogyi who is quite well known for building his guitars with "live" backs (meaning the backs are thin, light, and stiff, and move in tandem with the tops in a ping-pong type of effect). Quite the opposite of a projecting/reflecting sound. I would assume, but could be wrong, that Ray follows the same building concept.

Again, as I understand it, a "live" back does not necessarily mean that it dampens the sound. I believe that the back vibrates in a way as to reinforce the top's movement. The top moves the air inside the body, which sets the back to vibrating, which moves the air inside the body again, which sets the top to vibrating again, and so on. This is the ping-pong effect.

Perhaps an actual luthier will chime in a bit here with a better explanation.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

I believe lattice-braced backs are trying to lighten the overall weight of the back. The lattice bracing pattern provides additional structure to allow the luthier to thin backset beyond what 3 or 4 ladder braces can support. I cannot speak to the sonic contribution that results. Like all things guitar, it is about the sum of everything.

In regards to that, I once played a Somogyi guitar with a lattice braced back (had never seen one of his instruments with this). I called him on the phone and asked him about it. He told me that the particular piece of BRW used on that guitar was so stiff that he had to thin the back more than usual to reach his target stiffness. He said that the lattice bracing was a structural necessity on that particular instrument due to the thinness of the back.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

As I understand it, Ray Kraut is a disciple of Ervin Somogyi who is quite well known for building his guitars with "live" backs (meaning the backs are thin, light, and stiff, and move in tandem with the tops in a ping-pong type of effect). Quite the opposite of a projecting/reflecting sound. I would assume, but could be wrong, that Ray follows the same building concept.

Again, as I understand it, a "live" back does not necessarily mean that it dampens the sound. I believe that the back vibrates in a way as to reinforce the top's movement. The top moves the air inside the body, which sets the back to vibrating, which moves the air inside the body again, which sets the top to vibrating again, and so on. This is the ping-pong effect.

Perhaps an actual luthier will chime in a bit here with a better explanation.

You mean they are acoustically coupled. I don't see any scalloping that's why I think it's stiff. It would be great to hear a luthier's take on it. Somogyi makes a rich complex sound doesn't he and Mau's Kraut sounds quite clean and focussed.

Edited to add: unless he scallops the ends when he finally fits it, that would free the back to move.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by stringjunky

You mean they are acoustically coupled. I don't see any scalloping that's why I think it's stiff. It would be great to hear a luthier's take on it. Somogyi makes a rich complex sound doesn't he and Mau's Kraut sounds quite clean and focussed.

Edited to add: unless he scallops the ends when he finally fits it, that would free the back to move.

Yes, the back and top are acoustically coupled with a "live" back. That is a much better way of saying it. Thanks.

The OP mentioned that, "Ray states on his own website that the tonal world he inhabits is essentially that of Somogyi". I would be surprised to learn that Ray would build with essentially a "reflective" back. I remember playing a few of his instruments a few years back and thinking they were quite a bit like his mentor's builds in terms of the sound surrounding the player (as this is what I personally look for in a guitar). Still, what you are saying as regards to lattice bracing seems to make sense. Interesting stuff.

Where are the luthiers when you need them?

Edit: I think Mau can make any guitar sound clean and focused. He is a great player.