A new non invasive pickup from LR Bagg

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by JackB1

Not sure why Fishman or Baggs aren't trying to copy the Cole Clark 3 way system?

I mean, Fishman kind of did with their Aura Enhance system, which was a UST, Aura tech for the mic tone and then a SBT. The issue with the Cole Clark is that the heart of the system is the pickup that Takamine developed, which is literally built into the bridge. Maton and Cole Clark have great systems, but they are great because they use that main pickup. The addition of the mic and body sensor is just icing on the cake. That's a lot to put into a guitar and it's one of the reasons why Takamine, Cole Clark and Maton are less appealing acoustically than other brands.

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I mean, Fishman kind of did with their Aura Enhance system, which was a UST, Aura tech for the mic tone and then a SBT. The issue with the Cole Clark is that the heart of the system is the pickup that Takamine developed, which is literally built into the bridge. Maton and Cole Clark have great systems, but they are great because they use that main pickup. The addition of the mic and body sensor is just icing on the cake. That's a lot to put into a guitar and it's one of the reasons why Takamine, Cole Clark and Maton are less appealing acoustically than other brands.

Actually the Cole Clark system is very light. I have weighed one. For me it is the body sensor of the Cole Clark that holds all the magic!

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by leew3

I'll agree with the first part of your sentence, but not the second. It's good that you've had such positive experiences with a mic, but for many of us this is not a practical solution.

I can understand that. I'm only playing out at present in places where using nothing, or just mic'ing, is absolutely fine. I'm playing at a concert on Saturday night in a local Baptist church and there won't be a p/a. It will be a seated audience of around 60+ and I'll do my spot with just my voice and a D-18. And that will be more than enough for that occasion.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Actually the Cole Clark system is very light. I have weighed one. For me it is the body sensor of the Cole Clark that holds all the magic!

Oh sorry, I don't mean it's a heavy system, I more so meant that the palathetic pickup, which the bridge is literally built around, impacts the unplugged tone. I truly believe if that part was removed, the Cole Clark system would be far worse. Takamine needs a lot of credit for that innovation.

[guitaniac]

I’m reminded that the Voiceprint is able to locate a guitar’s three most feedback prone resonant frequencies and reduce the amplification at those frequencies using the anti-feedback knob, even when the raw signal/IR blend is at 0% IR. This makes me wonder if the feedback resistant “magic” of this new system might be in the onboard electronics rather than in the transducer itself. The claims for the system definitely pique one’s curiousity.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I’m reminded that the Voiceprint is able to locate a guitar’s three most feedback prone resonant frequencies and reduce the amplification at those frequencies using the anti-feedback knob, even when the raw signal/IR blend is at 0% IR. This makes me wonder if the feedback resistant “magic” of this new system might be in the onboard electronics rather than in the transducer itself. The claims for the system definitely pique one’s curiosity.

Yes, this is why I don't bother replacing the K&K pickups I have in guitars. They work really well with the VoicePrint and don't really feedback for me.

However, in the spirit of being generally disagreeable (Aaron and Cuki know why I'm cranky at the moment) I will say something about pickup innovation that is unpopular. Here goes...

I haven't seen anything "innovative" recently besides James May's work on the UltraTonic passive circuit. Now, besides the fact that it works great for me, it does not have mass marketing. It will not sell like Anthems. But, James is a very good engineer and his passive circuit design is clever, inventive, problem solving, and frankly cool. Maybe you also need to be an engineer to appreciate it? I wouldn't doubt it because I am one. Pretty much everything else out there is a variation on a theme now, which is fine, because it all works well for folks. Good time to be a pickup consumer.

Now, shall we remember the words of our pickup evangelist Doug Young? "The best pickup is worse than the worst microphone."

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

I am being deliberately challenging, and quiet rightly so. I have seen many professional acts fill up to a 5000 seater with just a mic', and many professional acts plug in at tiny venues. Both scenarios were absolutely fine from the audience perspective.

I do believe that a lot of acoustic guitar players, who are amature to semi-pro, could use a stage mic' and get a much better timbre out front than from plugging in. But....... Folks love kit!

So we search for ways to plug in our guitars that will give us the timbre of using a stage mic' (ir's, stomp boxes, Di, pre-amp etc) when we could just learn to use a stage mic', and all would work out fine!

In answer to the question above "What pickup would I put into a $5000 guitar". My answer would be an SM58.

from one contrarian to another...

As for the mic is good enough expectation, unless you have a really good front of house system, and someone to run it, most of the times it just won't.

Yes in quiet gigs with respectful audiences they work, and what a joy that is. But realistically speaking, most of the people posting here aren't in these situations. There are a lot of amatuer to semi-pros here that are just working in bars, coffee houses, restaurants, etc. And rarely are these environments suitable for a mic.

I LOVE simple mic setups. So much that I would carry one to every gig, and first setup with it to see how it would work in the room. I experimented with lowly Shures, up to expensive Neumans. When it worked, it was great, but most of the time, especially in noisy environments it didn't. I just couldn't get enough get enough gain before feedback to have it cut through the din so to say.

It's no debate, a mic, setup properly, will ALWAYS sound better than a pickup, but that does nothing for the people that are in these noisy venues.

I think for the noisy environments, a pickup has to be the choice.

I also think if you are going to pack a PA or an acoustic amp to a gig, you need to rehearse with it at volume, and figure out how to EQ your pickup, at the volume you play at, to learn how to get the best out of it, and come up with a sound that WORKS.

Me personally, I'm moving away from all piezo based pickups, because no matter what the brand I hear the quack. I've moved to the magnetic SA6 Seymour Duncan mag mic. Whenever I can, I use as much as the mic as possible in the mix, but when I can't, I try to EQ the magnetic side to be a pleasant musical sounding tone. I also use nickel based strings which help in that goal.

Is it going to sound like an ideally mic'd up guitar? NO, it won't, but it surely sounds better than the pickup in that video.

Back to the one mic on the guitar approach, I can say without a doubt, without someone running a board for you who can listen from an audience perspective, it just doesn't work.

I have an EXTENSIVE sound reinforcement background, so I'm talking from experience. For a few years, one of my gigs was to run sound for people at an open jam, at a noisy venue, and there were always mic purists who insisted on the mic technique. A lot of them watched David Rawling videos where he would mic with an SM57 or 58 and think they could do the same. Sorry they didn't have the technique, the chops, or the guitar, and they were rarely the best sounding in the show. Besides the noise in the room, a big problem was the artist themselves not being aware of his moving around in front of the mic making it a chore to keep the mic at the right level.


I also think taking out a $5000 guitar, to a gig in one of these noisy environments is overkill, as the tone surely wouldn't be appreciated in venues (ie restaurants, nars), where the music is background to the people flapping their gums. I use expensive guitars but I use them because I gig almost daily, they feel the best, and I want a good guitar in my hands when I'm working. Most of them aren't in the $5000 range though, more the $2000 to $3000 range. My more expensive guitars stay at home. I will NEVER put a pickup in my early 60's J45 as I don't want to mess up it's sound.

I also think SM58s are rarely the best choice for an acoustic. If I'm going to be in avenue where a microphone will work, (ie theater) I would surely choose a different mic.

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

from one contrarian to another...

As for the mic is good enough expectation, unless you have a really good front of house system, and someone to run it, most of the times it just won't.

Yes in quiet gigs with respectful audiences they work, and what a joy that is. But realistically speaking, most of the people posting here aren't in these situations. There are a lot of amatuer to semi-pros here that are just working in bars, coffee houses, restaurants, etc. And rarely are these environments suitable for a mic.

I LOVE simple mic setups. So much that I would carry one to every gig, and first setup with it to see how it would work in the room. I experimented with lowly Shures, up to expensive Neumans. When it worked, it was great, but most of the time, especially in noisy environments it didn't. I just couldn't get enough get enough gain before feedback to have it cut through the din so to say.

It's no debate, a mic, setup properly, will ALWAYS sound better than a pickup, but that does nothing for the people that are in these noisy venues.

I think for the noisy environments, a pickup has to be the choice.

I also think if you are going to pack a PA or an acoustic amp to a gig, you need to rehearse with it at volume, and figure out how to EQ your pickup, at the volume you play at, to learn how to get the best out of it, and come up with a sound that WORKS.

Me personally, I'm moving away from all piezo based pickups, because no matter what the brand I hear the quack. I've moved to the magnetic SA6 Seymour Duncan mag mic. Whenever I can, I use as much as the mic as possible in the mix, but when I can't, I try to EQ the magnetic side to be a pleasant musical sounding tone. I also use nickel based strings which help in that goal.

Is it going to sound like an ideally mic'd up guitar? NO, it won't, but it surely sounds better than the pickup in that video.

Back to the pre mic on the guitar approach, I can say without a doubt without someone running a board for you who can listen from an audience perspective, it just didn't work.

I have an EXTENSIVE sound reinforcement background, so I'm talking from experience. For a few years, one of my gigs was to run sound for people at an open jam, at a noisy venue, and there were always mic purists who insisted on the mic technique. A lot of them watched David Rawling videos where he would mic with an SM57 or 58 and think they could do the same. Sorry they didn't have the technique, the chops, or the guitar, and they were rarely the best sounding in the show. Besides the noise in the room, a big problem was the artist themselves not being aware of his moving around in front of the mic making it a chore to keep the mic at the right level.


I also think taking out a $5000 guitar, to a gig in one of these noisy environments is overkill, as the tone surely wouldn't be appreciated in venues (ie restaurants, nars), where the music is background to the people flapping their gums. I use expensive guitars but I use them because I gig almost daily and they feel the best and I want a good guitar in my hands when I'm working. Most of the aren't in the $5000 range though, more the $2000 to $3000 range. My more expensive guitars stay at home. I will NEVER put a pickup in my early 60's J45 as I don't want to mess up it's sound.

I also think SM58s are rarely the best choice for an acoustic. If I'm going to be in avenue where a microphone will work, (ie theater) I would surely choose a different mic.

Why even compare a mic to a pickup when they are totally different things? I think the future is in IR tech, it’s just not quite there for me yet.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

from one contrarian to another...

As for the mic is good enough expectation, unless you have a really good front of house system, and someone to run it, most of the times it just won't.

Yes in quiet gigs with respectful audiences they work, and what a joy that is. But realistically speaking, most of the people posting here aren't in these situations. There are a lot of amatuer to semi-pros here that are just working in bars, coffee houses, restaurants, etc. And rarely are these environments suitable for a mic.

I LOVE simple mic setups. So much that I would carry one to every gig, and first setup with it to see how it would work in the room. I experimented with lowly Shures, up to expensive Neumans. When it worked, it was great, but most of the time, especially in noisy environments it didn't. I just couldn't get enough get enough gain before feedback to have it cut through the din so to say.

It's no debate, a mic, setup properly, will ALWAYS sound better than a pickup, but that does nothing for the people that are in these noisy venues.

I think for the noisy environments, a pickup has to be the choice.

I also think if you are going to pack a PA or an acoustic amp to a gig, you need to rehearse with it at volume, and figure out how to EQ your pickup, at the volume you play at, to learn how to get the best out of it, and come up with a sound that WORKS.

Me personally, I'm moving away from all piezo based pickups, because no matter what the brand I hear the quack. I've moved to the magnetic SA6 Seymour Duncan mag mic. Whenever I can, I use as much as the mic as possible in the mix, but when I can't, I try to EQ the magnetic side to be a pleasant musical sounding tone. I also use nickel based strings which help in that goal.

Is it going to sound like an ideally mic'd up guitar? NO, it won't, but it surely sounds better than the pickup in that video.

Back to the pre mic on the guitar approach, I can say without a doubt without someone running a board for you who can listen from an audience perspective, it just didn't work.

I have an EXTENSIVE sound reinforcement background, so I'm talking from experience. For a few years, one of my gigs was to run sound for people at an open jam, at a noisy venue, and there were always mic purists who insisted on the mic technique. A lot of them watched David Rawling videos where he would mic with an SM57 or 58 and think they could do the same. Sorry they didn't have the technique, the chops, or the guitar, and they were rarely the best sounding in the show. Besides the noise in the room, a big problem was the artist themselves not being aware of his moving around in front of the mic making it a chore to keep the mic at the right level.


I also think taking out a $5000 guitar, to a gig in one of these noisy environments is overkill, as the tone surely wouldn't be appreciated in venues (ie restaurants, nars), where the music is background to the people flapping their gums. I use expensive guitars but I use them because I gig almost daily and they feel the best and I want a good guitar in my hands when I'm working. Most of the aren't in the $5000 range though, more the $2000 to $3000 range. My more expensive guitars stay at home. I will NEVER put a pickup in my early 60's J45 as I don't want to mess up it's sound.

I also think SM58s are rarely the best choice for an acoustic. If I'm going to be in avenue where a microphone will work, (ie theater) I would surely choose a different mic.

You just won the internet, IMO.
For today, at least

This "sounds like your guitar, only louder" marketing line is about half a century old now...acoustic pickups ARE a lot better these days but they are still...pickups.
After spending countless sums over the years only to be disappointed, I found the very good (and no longer made) LR Baggs iMix (Element UST and iBeam SBT), installed it in one guitar and really liked it, and now I have one in all my guitars. I like the tone, I know what to do with it in any environment and it's reliable.
Does it "sound like my guitar, only louder"? No. But it sounds like an acoustic guitar.
In closing, I think the real advancement in acoustic guitar sound reinforcement has been in the modern acoustic guitar amps.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Why even compare a mic to a pickup when they are totally different things? I think the future is in IR tech, it’s just not quite there for me yet.

Agreed they are totally different thing, and you should have different expectations with each. They are not interchangeable as far as I am concerned. Mics just don't work for me most of the time.

Funny thing I do a lot of festivals, and many times I would give the house soundman two sends. I would tell him to choose for himself the sound that works best! One from a mic outside my soundhole, and the other from my pedalboard. And even with pro level sound, I found them using more of the pickup send! I'm talking about five hundred to a few thousand people here, not a bar room

I personally I'm not a fan of IR technology, although I do use it sometimes in the studio for reverbs and speaker sims. Maybe as they are further developed for guitar pickup systems, I will change my mind, but for right now I'm not convinced they are all that. I personally prefer analog knobs with the ability to dial EQ on the fly. My three faves are the Grace preamps (Alix and Felix), the new model Empress MKII DELUXE Para EQ with continuously variable Qs and HP and LP Filters (which I think you should demo on your youtube channel), and the JHS Colorbox V2.

Do these things make my Seymour Duncan SA6 sound just like my natural acoustic tone? No, but I have a very consistent, musical tone that I can work with, that is quite feedback free.

The whole point of my post above was to contradict that a mic is the best option for people.

[Robin, Wales]

I have read all the replies above - much knowledgeable input. Thanks for the time and consideration you have put in to this topic.

Don't confuse the challenging nature of my posts on this issue with any personal intransigence on my part. I am open minded and curious about sound reinforcement. I did run the desk at local events for a good number of years, and for a jazz festival and international dulcimer festival. The bluegrass band that I played with used a single mic' for all gigs, including rowdy Saturday night pubs. So I got pretty adept at working that style of system.

The acoustic guitars we play were designed in the 20s and 30s, when sound reinforcement at concerts was limited, but the instruments were used successfully by performers. There wasn't much "plugging in" at the Grand Ole Opry but the concerts and radio show went just fine. So I'm curious about what has changed? I think to myself "What were the various models of acoustic guitar designed to do, and why can they not do that now?". It is an interesting starting point for looking at sound reinforcement.

OK, so this is all "big picture" stuff and may have no relationship to gigging today with an acoustic guitar in today's venues.

I do read the threads in the "acoustic amplification" section with interest, and have been learning lots from them. I may call out the Emperor's clothes, but hopefully that is useful to help folks really question each situation.

Getting back to the OP.... The direct feed from the new pickup sounds nothing like that Collins would through a mic'. Well, somebody had to say it. But, as Aaron says in a post above, why should it?

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

... I found the very good (and no longer made) LR Baggs iMix (Element UST and iBeam SBT), installed it in one guitar and really liked it, and now I have one in all my guitars. I like the tone, I know what to do with it in any environment and it's reliable. ...I think the real advancement in acoustic guitar sound reinforcement has been in the modern acoustic guitar amps.

This is the approach I find most sensible, finding what works for you, and consistency in getting a solid musical tone from venue to venue.

I also agree the biggest advancements have been in acoustic amp, and also small PA design. They are better sounding, have more tonal options, and are lighter in weight.

[jimmy bookout]

^^^
Indeed.
After decades of jumping down the "your guitar, only louder" rabbit hole, I am set.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

I can understand that. I'm only playing out at present in places where using nothing, or just mic'ing, is absolutely fine. I'm playing at a concert on Saturday night in a local Baptist church and there won't be a p/a. It will be a seated audience of around 60+ and I'll do my spot with just my voice and a D-18. And that will be more than enough for that occasion.

Very good. We still do our events of this size acoustically or with very light reinforcement from mics and a stick system.

[Br1ck]

It was with great chagrin that I found out my new to me Santa Cruz had an Element in it. The prospect of removing it and having to have a new saddle cut is not desirable. I've been living with only Dazzos installed by Teddy for so long, I really don't want anything else. Having a pickup with a flat frequency response through a SunnAudio pre just works. It sounds pretty good to me. Maybe I'll just live with the Element. Wonder how long it will last in the Baggs lineup?

If I had a main gigging guitar, I'd get as close to a Cole Clark system as I could.