Recommend mic placement for my matched ATs

Blessed · #1 03-18-2013, 04:32 PM

Question 1:
I own a matched pair of mics (AT4040 + AT4041). I run them through a Tascam US800. I'm pretty tone conscious. My acoustic guitar is solid rosewood and sounds fantastic with a new set of nanowebs.

I’ve spent much time experimenting with the common mic placement diagrams, watching video tutorials, and reading tips etc. I just haven’t found a pleasing way to set these mics up with consistency. A lot of setups I’ve seen use a pair of pencil mics as opposed to my setup of one large diaphragm and one pencil. My room is carpeted with some acoustic treatments. Any thoughts on mic placement with my hardware?

Question 2:
Because of the above dilemma, I seem to get a better recording (but I shouldn’t?!) using the 4040 in one channel and running direct from the guitar’s preamp on the other channel. In this example the AT4040 is pointing at the 15th fret about 10” away. My ear tells me what is wrong, but I'm not sure how to correct it. Please listen and tell me what jumps out at you and give advice for improvement. I'm not looking for perfection I just want my feet pointed in a better direction.

Compressed no effects:
https://soundcloud.com/blessedsongs-...y-hiding-place

Uncompressed no effects wav (17mb):
http://www.blessedsongs.com/files/au...lace_CLEAN.zip

Thanks

GregEL · #2 03-18-2013, 05:23 PM

What don't you like about the sound?

I use a LDC and a SDC together with what I think are pretty good results. Things I remind myself are to make sure the signal going into the interface from the mics is strong but without clipping. Keep the switches on the mics at zero. I've found I prefer a sweet spot more close mic'ed than you describe (about six inches). I place the LDC on the right side at the lower bout pointing slightly toward the sound hole and the SDC at around the 12th fret also pointing slightly toward the sound hole.

Once I get a strong clear signal into my device the next step is to check for phase problems and EQ. I EQ each channel separately, pan left and right and listen. Further EQ on the out channel may be necessary (lust a little). Your reverb sounds pretty good and I don't think too much compression is what's called for here, the dynamics are pretty soft. The treble strings sound just a touch thin to me, that's where I think the close micing may pay off.

Keep trying with the two mics, different positions, etc. Mic placement is everything! You'll get there eventually. I like to add a touch of limiter at the end for some punch. Not really enough to notice but a little extra power sometimes pays off. I'd read up and experiment a lot with your EQ, that's where you're going to get the sound you want if you can't quite get it with good mic placement to begin with.

Good luck!

sdelsolray · #3 03-18-2013, 05:40 PM

The recording sounds like a piezo UST for the most part.

Could you post a recording of just the two AT microphones?

RRuskin · #4 03-18-2013, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blessed

Question 1:
I own a matched pair of mics (AT4040 + AT4041)...........
Thanks

No, you don't. "Matched" means at a minimum, the same mic and model. True matching means that all units have the exact measured specifications.

trpullen · #5 03-18-2013, 06:36 PM

not very easy to see but...this is pretty close. Combine this and what GregEl says and you will be in the ballpark.

http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/i...e7c15b68/l.jpg

fitness1 · #6 03-18-2013, 07:19 PM

dump the line out of the guitar and use the two mics (which aren't "matched" as noted above.

You don't mention what body size, brand or model your guitar is, or what the top wood is. These things would all come into play here.

Try moving the 4040 away from the guitar a little farther and pointing the 4041 just below the bridges treble side about a foot or so away.

I think that would be a good starting point. Probably need to tweak the gain on the mics a bit when you take away the guitars pickup.

Doug Young · #7 03-18-2013, 09:04 PM

You're getting a really strange, artificially wide sound, which comes from having 2 uncorrelated sources, the mic and pickup. You'd probably get a better sound with the mic+pickup by not panning them hard left and right, and having the mic be at least as strong as the pickup.

I'll 2nd the suggestion to post a mic-only example. No reason you can't get a good sound from your setup, but it'd be easier to make suggestions if we hear what you have now. You also don't say what mic placements you've tried. With unmatched mics, you probably won't have much luck with X/Y or ORTF placements (tho never say never), but spaced pairs should work. Try one at the the 15th fret, another below the bridge. Should sound fine.

Doug Young · #8 03-18-2013, 10:23 PM

I took a quick look at your raw file, and did a mix using only the mic track - so mono, throwing away the pickup track. There are some problems, you have a kind of scooped sound, with a brittle high end, and some boomy, peaky low notes. That's not too surprising with the neck placement, and you might either be too close for the mic (proximity effect), or aimed too close to the sound hole. Your signal is also pretty hot, clipping or nearly clipping in a few places, and I'm hearing a sort of fuzziness overall that I can't quite put my finger on. I wasn't able to completely eliminate those things. But all in all, you can end up with a sort of ok recording just with the 1 mic. Here's my mix:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/HidingPlace_Mono.mp3

I at least like the overall vibe of this better than the mic/pickup, even if there are still some issues.

Play with the placement, add the 2nd mic for stereo, maybe bring your recording levels down a bit, and I think you should be able to get a good sound.

Blessed · #9 03-19-2013, 01:44 AM

I appreciate the feedback. I’ll go through everyone’s posts tomorrow and take note and reply to questions.

Sorry about the matched pair statement, I was repeating sales talk (factory matched was what he said) from many months ago. As you can tell I'm weak in this area.

I know the AT4040 was a bit too close too the sound hole. Moving it closer to the 12th fret as instructed elsewhere was producing a thinner sound. Moving the mic in very close to the strings at the 12th fret produces a nice intimate sound which I like, but then any amount of movement can produce poor results. Moving the mic out farther and boosting it introduced other problems. As I mentioned I've tried different approaches on many occasions with some success but no consistency. I know I just need to keep experimenting and I’ll conquer it.

Maybe I should consider getting good at using one mic until I'm better versed in the art of stereo recording.

I tried the mic + preamp combo because there are folks out there that recommend it. It does produce a wider sound than one mic but it’s not the sound I’m after. My wishful thinking was that someone would tell me to slap an EQ on my recording everything would be better.

Thanks again, I'll re-record this same piece with two mics and chime back in when I’m able.

GregEL · #10 03-19-2013, 05:50 AM

Slap an EQ on your recording and everything will be better.
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Sorry.
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Couldn't resist.

Ty Ford · #11 03-19-2013, 08:01 AM

1. Don't point the mic at the sound hole any closer than 18 inches away unless it's an omni.

Regards,

Ty

trpullen · #12 03-19-2013, 09:00 AM

Take the large (4040) and place it about 12" from the top, halfway between the bridge and edge on the treble side of the guitar. Point it in at about a 30 degree angle toward where the pickguard ends under the little e string.

Shoot the 4041 about the 15th fret at a similar 20 - 30 degree angle toward the body of the guitar. You can place it about 12" away from the guitar too.

Or you could try this. Best recording I have heard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_SxLsL3_tE

Ty Ford · #13 03-19-2013, 09:52 AM

Get someone else to play you guitar.

Put good headphones on and move the mics around until you like what you hear. Take your time. It's a learning experience. Have fun with it. Most acoustic guitars have one or two lobes of sound they project. Get the mics into those lobes and your hearing brain should like that.

Regards,

Ty Ford

K-vegas · #14 03-19-2013, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Get someone else to play you guitar.

Put good headphones on and move the mics around until you like what you hear. Take your time. It's a learning experience. Have fun with it. Most acoustic guitars have one or two lobes of sound they project. Get the mics into those lobes and your hearing brain should like that.

Regards,

Ty Ford

That's a pretty good idea. I've done it with others playing their own instruments and it frees you up to move around.

Rudy4 · #15 03-19-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Get someone else to play you guitar.

Put good headphones on and move the mics around until you like what you hear. Take your time. It's a learning experience. Have fun with it. Most acoustic guitars have one or two lobes of sound they project. Get the mics into those lobes and your hearing brain should like that.

Regards,

Ty Ford

If you have good closed back phones it's pretty easy to listen to one mic at a time and move yourself around instead of repositioning the mic. Easier for me to scootch my chair around a bit...