The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 12-09-2022, 07:35 PM
jasperguitar jasperguitar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 566
Default Yikes, now I've done it ..

Recently, I started playing the trumpet. I was a trumpet player as a kid, and I inherited a trumpet so off I went. I've discovered playing the trumpet is helpful for my guitar playing. The trumpet is one note/at a time. No strum. No pick, just play note. I play something on trumpet, then play the same notes on guitar. lots of fun.
So, playing trumpet, I got playing songs from a fake book. Old show tunes, etc. The chords are noted above. It seems as if the chord changes on ever note, just like the trumpet changes notes. I'm only human, so making these changes is ... I also note that the songs go upper neighbors, lower neighbors, passing tones .. all the way.

How do I play this stuff? I guess I'm moving toward jazz playing. I'm using an acoustic and a fender strat.

For any of you that play big band, standards, etc. What is the deal? Thanks
__________________
Jasper "Thomas of NH" Guitar
Playing, learning .. the acoustic guitar.
Eastman E8D "the Fox"
Taylor 414ce "Baby T"

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-10-2022, 02:38 AM
Andyrondack Andyrondack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Albion
Posts: 1,220
Default

I would certainly work from a different book. Preferably a book with cd/audio download and try to first learn the tunes by ear.
What you describe sounds to me not like what a fake book should be but a book of tunes which have been arranged with 'improvisations' already baked in.
I look for books which just have the basic tunes in , I know enough music theory that I can simplify the chords down to basic triads where I want to and substitute or simplify the more jazzy chords. I only do finger style arrangements so the kind of frequent regular chord changes you describe which is normal for jazz rhythm players would be impossible for me, I just aim to impart a bit of mild jazz flavouring by harmonising occassional notes with jazzy chords and simpler double stops and single melody notes elsewhere, maybe throw in in some weird jazz chord licks or blues phrases where the melody pauses for breath.

I think the important thing to understand about show tunes type stuff is that there is no such thing as a jazz melody, jazz is what you do to a basic tune and what you do is optional as long as you know some music theory.
So I would start with a proper fake book that just has the basic tune as sung by a vocalist,
learn it by ear then arrange something within my technical ability using my knowledge of intervals and chord theory.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-10-2022, 03:56 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperguitar View Post
Recently, I started playing the trumpet. I was a trumpet player as a kid, and I inherited a trumpet so off I went. I've discovered playing the trumpet is helpful for my guitar playing. The trumpet is one note/at a time. No strum. No pick, just play note. I play something on trumpet, then play the same notes on guitar. lots of fun.
So, playing trumpet, I got playing songs from a fake book. Old show tunes, etc. The chords are noted above. It seems as if the chord changes on ever note, just like the trumpet changes notes.
Really? Jazz tunes often change chord every 2 beats, but no more than that. And they certainly don't change on every note of a tune - they're not tied to a melody in that way.

If that's happening, you definitely need a different book. But any normal jazz fake book ought to be OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperguitar View Post
I also note that the songs go upper neighbors, lower neighbors, passing tones .. all the way.
That's a melodic issue, nothing to do with the chord changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperguitar View Post
How do I play this stuff? I guess I'm moving toward jazz playing.
Well, you need to start thinking "rhythm" and not "melody". Chords are for keeping a steady beat, accompanying a melody. The melody will weave in and out of the chords, but that's not your business as a chord player.

A good site for jazz progressions (no melodies shown) is this: https://www.jazzstudies.us/. Pick a few of those and try strumming your way through, one downstroke per beat. Of course, your big problem is learning to hold the shapes for all those chords, and to change between them fast enough! That's the problem with jazz: - it;s complicated!
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-10-2022, 08:48 AM
jasperguitar jasperguitar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 566
Default

I would certainly work from a different book.

"A lead sheet or fake sheet is a form of musical notation that specifies the essential elements of a popular song: the melody, lyrics and harmony. The melody is written in modern Western music notation, the lyric is written as text below the staff and the harmony is specified with chord symbols above the staff".

Not sure you have ever played another instrument. These "fake" books were written [handwritten], because in the way back days it was a no-no. As a jazz trumpet player and a little tiny bit of singing, we [trumpet/sax/etc.] bought lead sheet fake books. The books I own are classic fake books, the best of the best. The book I am using with my guitar was put together in the early 1960's.

This was way before cds, dvds, tape, etc.

I agree with one part of your response. Break down the songs. That makes sense. So, I will try playing basic triads, then I will sneak in a 7th, or flatted 3rd or something.

I know I could never move from chord to chord fast enough to play along with the songs.

Thanks for the response.
__________________
Jasper "Thomas of NH" Guitar
Playing, learning .. the acoustic guitar.
Eastman E8D "the Fox"
Taylor 414ce "Baby T"

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-10-2022, 08:57 AM
jasperguitar jasperguitar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 566
Default

A good site for jazz progressions (no melodies shown) Pick a few of those and try strumming your way through, one downstroke per beat. Of course, your big problem is learning to hold the shapes for all those chords, and to change between them fast enough! That's the problem with[I] jazz:

Thanks, you are the man! ha ha ha ha ..

now I'll go watch u tube video of Wes Montgomery, Charlie Christian and ? I know - buckethead. ha ha ha ha .. I threw him in to see if you are paying attention .. hahahhaah

Thanks for the response. love this stuff .. Once I get my trumpet lip back I'm joining a community band .. I figure worst comes to whatever.. I can play one note and make the jazz guitar guy face as my trumpet dangles from the wicked cool trumpet harness.
__________________
Jasper "Thomas of NH" Guitar
Playing, learning .. the acoustic guitar.
Eastman E8D "the Fox"
Taylor 414ce "Baby T"

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-10-2022, 04:30 PM
Andyrondack Andyrondack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Albion
Posts: 1,220
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Of course, your big problem is learning to hold the shapes for all those chords, and to change between them fast enough! That's the problem with jazz: - it;s complicated!
I heard John Renbourn tell a story about the time someone gave him a book that was all about the famous Charlie Mingus composition Pork Pie Hat.
Fascinated by all the musicology and jazz history that lead up to the creation of this tune he read on entranced up to the chapter which reviewed all the different interpretations of this tune by great jazz musicians, then came to a mention of his and Bert's version and felt himself turning white as he read the disparaging review of a somewhat pathetic attempt by two British folkies who had in the view of the author wrecked Charlie Mingus's precisely crafted chord progression behind the melody to produce something which bore little resemblance to the sublime original.
That didn't stop him going on to play it though.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-10-2022, 11:02 PM
aK_bAsh7 aK_bAsh7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 386
Default

"How do I play this stuff? I guess I'm moving toward jazz playing. I'm using an acoustic and a fender strat."

Start out with tunes in slow tempos!
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=