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  #61  
Old 10-24-2013, 02:14 PM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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Originally Posted by kirkham13 View Post
I would agree with a used gibson epiphone heritage etc. I would also consider using your electric or even acoustic in front of the jazz panel. I am learning jazz as well and I think solid body electrics can get you pretty far, and are much easier to play... Also playing strats into fender tube amps with compression delay fuzz etc but mostly clean. My jazz instructor is a professional and plays jazz on solid bodies, that's all he owns and most of them are worth less than your tele...
I am a big fan of Bryan Baker. I think he plays exclusively on solid bodies... I have seen him play a Telecaster, a Strat, and (I think) even an Ibanez shred machine with a whammy bar. On the other hand, Eric Skye plays on a flattop. So yeah, you can play jazz on anything. And everyone knows some unknown genius that is playing the most amazing jazz you have ever heard on a beat-up Ibanez Artcore that he picked up at a pawn shop for $52.50.

I hope everyone can understand that I am not a genius. I don't play the most amazing jazz you have ever heard. I need all of the advantages I can get. I know that there are amazing musicians entirely disregarding tradition and making incredible music on all sorts of things. But anyone who thinks that there isn't a level of subjective objectivity and outright bias in jazz (especially in the world of jazz education) probably has not tried to traverse those waters.

In classical guitar, guitars tend to fall into student-level guitars and concert level guitars. Student-level guitars start at $200 or so and run up to about $2000. Concert-quality is, of course, subjective, but broadly speaking, a good concert-quality nylon-string begins in the $3000-$5000 range and can reach 6 figures. I was wondering, since they are similar niche markets, is there a comparable hierarchy? A couple of posters have given serious and thoughtful answers. Mr. Beaumont suggested a Heritage or a Gibson ES-175. This makes sense to me and generally does what I want... it sets a sort of floor for what would be a good guitar that would look and sound appropriate. [D]kwvt's suggestion to play many guitars with f-holes is also a good suggestion, but trying to find a place to test out many archtops is a challenge. I am already planning a trip over Thanksgiving break to drive across the Southeast and find the "perfect" dread to play bluegrass (or whatever it is that I play), I can also try to find shops in the southeast that have a large selection of archtops.
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  #62  
Old 10-25-2013, 05:44 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
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Originally Posted by posternutbag View Post
I know that there are amazing musicians entirely disregarding tradition and making incredible music on all sorts of things.
Most of the examples here have not been anything at all that disregards tradition. With few exceptions, replies have talked about electric archtops, which is what you want to play.

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Originally Posted by posternutbag View Post
In classical guitar, guitars tend to fall into student-level guitars and concert level guitars...I was wondering, since they are similar niche markets, is there a comparable hierarchy?
No, I don't believe this is true. Classical guitars are obviously 100% acoustic, very lightly built, and extremely sensitive to construction technique and quality. You truly get what you pay for in a Classical or Flamenco guitar (and yes, I have been in that market, I'm not ignorant). Electric guitars, even archtops (!), are just not as nuanced as that. And I don't need to tell you about the Classical player stereotype regarding tradition and snobbishness. Most jazz is just not chamber music played in a school auditorium to a hushed, dressed-up audience.

Basically, I'm also saying sçréw what your fellow students think. Do you really care so much about that? If so, then that's that I guess.

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Originally Posted by posternutbag View Post
Mr. Beaumont suggested a Heritage or a Gibson ES-175... it sets a sort of floor for what would be a good guitar that would look and sound appropriate.
Great guitars, but nowhere near a FLOOR. More like a nice cozy living room where you can settle down and stay forever if you like. You could move up to the luxury suite or even the penthouse one day, but that is not the floor.
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  #63  
Old 10-25-2013, 05:57 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
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Originally Posted by posternutbag View Post
Most of the guitar performance majors in the jazz program have $5-$10K guitars.
I just found this quote in the long thread. Wow. Really? My reaction is, I doubt it's actually "most," and second, if true, they are playing far more expensive instruments than most pros. Good for them, but does that make sense to you?

I attended the now defunct National Guitar Summer Workshop a couple of times. I was probably 35 or so, enjoying a week away from my young family, playing guitar in a campus setting like a... student (!) again. At that point, being gainfully employed, I already owned maybe a dozen guitars, including an ES-775 and an L-7CN for jazz.

There were greasy haired kids dragging $3K Paul Reed Smiths around campus without cases. I thought that was really lame. Clearly, musically ignorant parents were responsible for indulging them to that degree. But one day, those kids will be adults and will have to buy their own guitars, and they'll have different factors to consider.

I'd suggest perhaps, that "most" of the guitar performance majors at your school are being similarly indulged. On this forum you will find students, but probably the majority of people replying are adults who are not in that bubble any more, and are giving practical advice as a result. It is clearly not resonating with you.
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  #64  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:46 AM
zabdart zabdart is offline
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One that a professional is playing?
I don't know... simple answers to simple questions.
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  #65  
Old 10-25-2013, 08:11 AM
73171 73171 is offline
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If you can afford it, get a used Gibson ES175.


or, see my signature!
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  #66  
Old 10-25-2013, 11:02 AM
greenchimneys greenchimneys is offline
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I find this thread very interesting, so i guess i'll throw my 2 cents in...

Coming from a purely acoustic angle (I play several jazz styles on an acoustic archtop), I too was curious what constituted a "pro level" guitar. In the realm of electrics, there is much more of a gray area as to what might or might not be considered "pro" gear. What I've found with acoustics, looking through very old manufacturer catalogs, is that they seemed to consider a $2000-2200 (equivalent in today's dollars) guitar pro level. Two examples of this are the Gibson L-7 and the Epiphone Triumph. Both were "Pro sized" guitars at 17" with a 25.5 scale length, both were made with all solid woods, and both featured a carved top rather than a pressed solid top.

To me, thanks to a little research, this is what I would also consider "pro level." Of course, there is no modern equivalent to any of these guitars, and I'm aware that you are talking mainly electric, but I just thought I'd put that out there in case anyone else was curious.
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  #67  
Old 10-25-2013, 11:27 AM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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Originally Posted by rpguitar View Post
I just found this quote in the long thread. Wow. Really? My reaction is, I doubt it's actually "most," and second, if true, they are playing far more expensive instruments than most pros. Good for them, but does that make sense to you?
Yeah, so it is true. I am not sure that it is true in every music department across the country, but a confluence of events creates this "phenomenon." I attend CofC (College of Charleston) and there are a lot of trust fund kids; I know lots of students that live in houses (houses, not apartments) that their parents bought (not rented) for them for use while they are in school. Lots of students live in beach houses and drive Land Rovers. Certainly not all, not even a majority, but enough that it is quite noticeable. So a good potion of the student body is wealthy. Second, our tuition is pretty low. Not as low as it was in the 1990s, but still pretty low. This means that a lot of students wind up with a surfeit of financial aid. I know several music majors that have bought really nice instruments with money they borrowed.

So yes, lots of, maybe most, students have nicer instruments than true professionals, at least in the guitar world. I don't think that this holds true for violinists and cellists. There does seem to be a hard cap for students at around $10k (I seldom see students with instruments much over $10k). This buys a lot of guitar (classical or archtop) but it barely scratches the surface of the violin and cello market.

Like I said in an earlier post, I think I am going to do a tour of music stores in the SE over Thanksgiving and try to put my hands on as many guitars as possible, hopefully, one will jump out at me.
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  #68  
Old 10-25-2013, 11:33 AM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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Originally Posted by greenchimneys View Post
I find this thread very interesting, so i guess i'll throw my 2 cents in...

Coming from a purely acoustic angle...

To me, thanks to a little research, this is what I would also consider "pro level." Of course, there is no modern equivalent to any of these guitars, and I'm aware that you are talking mainly electric, but I just thought I'd put that out there in case anyone else was curious.
I actually originally wanted an acoustic archtop; something like what Dave Rawlings plays. I thought, I could cover all of my bases (swing/jazz, bluegrass, blues) with a single guitar. This was a good thought, but not very practical.

Sorry for the double post; couldn't figure out how to work two responses into one post.
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  #69  
Old 10-25-2013, 02:25 PM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
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Originally Posted by posternutbag View Post
...try to put my hands on as many guitars as possible, hopefully, one will jump out at me.
Good. Ultimately, that's the ticket. I have bought many guitars because it was "the thing" to have, and still own a few of those... But only the ones that ultimately walked the walk behind their reputation (like the '28 L-5, which really is that good).

So many other things matter more, like scale length, neck profile, and unquantifiable mojo type elements. You may very well find those in a very modestly priced instrument - if you open your mind to that.
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  #70  
Old 10-25-2013, 08:47 PM
dkwvt dkwvt is offline
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I will chime in with rpguitar on the music students playing expensive instrument angle. These young people are not professional musicians, they are probably being subsidized in some form even if it is deferred payments. Adolescent and young adult peer pressure can be brutal and judgement seems so terminal...

This is not the real world and it sounds like you are almost done with it. Ignore the bling, (I know, easier said than done), go enjoy picking out a new instrument that makes you look feel and sound good, it should be fun... I still enjoy my starter and very inexpensive Washburn HB-15... I think I would rather be a good guitar player that could make a regular guitar sound great than a poser with a trophy ;-)
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  #71  
Old 10-27-2013, 09:28 AM
dkwvt dkwvt is offline
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Hey, one final thought as you begin your "quest". I'd love to know what you end up with and what your thoughts were.

Best of luck to you, dkw
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  #72  
Old 10-28-2013, 10:30 PM
peterbright peterbright is offline
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Sell your Martin...take the $2,500 - $3,000 and Buy a used Gibson ES 175 or a Heritage H575 (Preferrably the later).
Either would be good for a lifetime, be perfectly acceptable in your situation (Tell them you leave your $20K guitars at home) and can be easily sold in the event you don't become a jazz player or want to upgrade. Certainly there are fine examples that are cheaper (Ibanez 155 series is one I've owned) but these suggestions will fit the bill.
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  #73  
Old 10-30-2013, 06:53 AM
SanzoneGuitars SanzoneGuitars is offline
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Default Professional archtop

My definition of a "professional quality archtop" would be solid top & solid back, with special consideration given to arch shape, voicing, neck shape, etc. It's that extra 10% effort that separates a luthier-built instrument from a great factory instrument. IMO it's well worth the extra $$ to discuss ideal tone and playability with a professional luthier, pick your woods, finish options, and other special requirements that perhaps can't be met by a factory. That said, the quality of factory instruments is very high these days (I've been fortunate to have visited the Eastman factory in Beijing for R&D 5 times in the past 4 years). Great instruments at a fair price, but still lacking that special touch and accountability that a good luthier can provide. We all know good pickers don't NEED a handmade instrument, but it sure is awesome to hear an excellent musician bring out the potential of a thoughtfully made guitar. As long as it's fun, that's what matters.
Chuck Sanzone
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  #74  
Old 10-31-2013, 08:16 AM
fuman fuman is offline
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"most were bought with student loan money"

That tells you everything you need to know. If you have to borrow the money to get the box, it's not worth it. Student loans are like herpes. They don't go away. Find the best box you can afford -- I've seen several for sale recently for around $1000 or less that would be admirable purchases, and hear great things about the higher-end Ibanez Artcores -- and when you're making money and can afford something that you like better, then buy it.

Don't let other people influence you in terms of what you "have" to have to be a "legitimate" musician, unless they're telling you talent, desire and discipline. If you have enough of those three, you will make people weep playing something cheap.
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  #75  
Old 10-31-2013, 07:31 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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"My defiinition of a "professional quality archtop" would be solid top & solid back,"

That being the case there are many professionals (and amateurs) playing non-professional guitars with great skill.
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