#61
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I hope everyone can understand that I am not a genius. I don't play the most amazing jazz you have ever heard. I need all of the advantages I can get. I know that there are amazing musicians entirely disregarding tradition and making incredible music on all sorts of things. But anyone who thinks that there isn't a level of subjective objectivity and outright bias in jazz (especially in the world of jazz education) probably has not tried to traverse those waters. In classical guitar, guitars tend to fall into student-level guitars and concert level guitars. Student-level guitars start at $200 or so and run up to about $2000. Concert-quality is, of course, subjective, but broadly speaking, a good concert-quality nylon-string begins in the $3000-$5000 range and can reach 6 figures. I was wondering, since they are similar niche markets, is there a comparable hierarchy? A couple of posters have given serious and thoughtful answers. Mr. Beaumont suggested a Heritage or a Gibson ES-175. This makes sense to me and generally does what I want... it sets a sort of floor for what would be a good guitar that would look and sound appropriate. [D]kwvt's suggestion to play many guitars with f-holes is also a good suggestion, but trying to find a place to test out many archtops is a challenge. I am already planning a trip over Thanksgiving break to drive across the Southeast and find the "perfect" dread to play bluegrass (or whatever it is that I play), I can also try to find shops in the southeast that have a large selection of archtops. |
#62
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Basically, I'm also saying sçréw what your fellow students think. Do you really care so much about that? If so, then that's that I guess. Great guitars, but nowhere near a FLOOR. More like a nice cozy living room where you can settle down and stay forever if you like. You could move up to the luxury suite or even the penthouse one day, but that is not the floor.
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Pre-War Guitar Co. Model D and OM-2018 1928 Gibson L-5 |
#63
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I attended the now defunct National Guitar Summer Workshop a couple of times. I was probably 35 or so, enjoying a week away from my young family, playing guitar in a campus setting like a... student (!) again. At that point, being gainfully employed, I already owned maybe a dozen guitars, including an ES-775 and an L-7CN for jazz. There were greasy haired kids dragging $3K Paul Reed Smiths around campus without cases. I thought that was really lame. Clearly, musically ignorant parents were responsible for indulging them to that degree. But one day, those kids will be adults and will have to buy their own guitars, and they'll have different factors to consider. I'd suggest perhaps, that "most" of the guitar performance majors at your school are being similarly indulged. On this forum you will find students, but probably the majority of people replying are adults who are not in that bubble any more, and are giving practical advice as a result. It is clearly not resonating with you.
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Pre-War Guitar Co. Model D and OM-2018 1928 Gibson L-5 |
#64
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One that a professional is playing?
I don't know... simple answers to simple questions. |
#65
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If you can afford it, get a used Gibson ES175.
or, see my signature!
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I've only heard two guys play jazz on a Les Paul....me, and some guy named "Les Paul" |
#66
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I find this thread very interesting, so i guess i'll throw my 2 cents in...
Coming from a purely acoustic angle (I play several jazz styles on an acoustic archtop), I too was curious what constituted a "pro level" guitar. In the realm of electrics, there is much more of a gray area as to what might or might not be considered "pro" gear. What I've found with acoustics, looking through very old manufacturer catalogs, is that they seemed to consider a $2000-2200 (equivalent in today's dollars) guitar pro level. Two examples of this are the Gibson L-7 and the Epiphone Triumph. Both were "Pro sized" guitars at 17" with a 25.5 scale length, both were made with all solid woods, and both featured a carved top rather than a pressed solid top. To me, thanks to a little research, this is what I would also consider "pro level." Of course, there is no modern equivalent to any of these guitars, and I'm aware that you are talking mainly electric, but I just thought I'd put that out there in case anyone else was curious. |
#67
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So yes, lots of, maybe most, students have nicer instruments than true professionals, at least in the guitar world. I don't think that this holds true for violinists and cellists. There does seem to be a hard cap for students at around $10k (I seldom see students with instruments much over $10k). This buys a lot of guitar (classical or archtop) but it barely scratches the surface of the violin and cello market. Like I said in an earlier post, I think I am going to do a tour of music stores in the SE over Thanksgiving and try to put my hands on as many guitars as possible, hopefully, one will jump out at me. |
#68
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Sorry for the double post; couldn't figure out how to work two responses into one post. |
#69
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So many other things matter more, like scale length, neck profile, and unquantifiable mojo type elements. You may very well find those in a very modestly priced instrument - if you open your mind to that.
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Pre-War Guitar Co. Model D and OM-2018 1928 Gibson L-5 |
#70
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I will chime in with rpguitar on the music students playing expensive instrument angle. These young people are not professional musicians, they are probably being subsidized in some form even if it is deferred payments. Adolescent and young adult peer pressure can be brutal and judgement seems so terminal...
This is not the real world and it sounds like you are almost done with it. Ignore the bling, (I know, easier said than done), go enjoy picking out a new instrument that makes you look feel and sound good, it should be fun... I still enjoy my starter and very inexpensive Washburn HB-15... I think I would rather be a good guitar player that could make a regular guitar sound great than a poser with a trophy ;-) |
#71
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Hey, one final thought as you begin your "quest". I'd love to know what you end up with and what your thoughts were.
Best of luck to you, dkw |
#72
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Sell your Martin...take the $2,500 - $3,000 and Buy a used Gibson ES 175 or a Heritage H575 (Preferrably the later).
Either would be good for a lifetime, be perfectly acceptable in your situation (Tell them you leave your $20K guitars at home) and can be easily sold in the event you don't become a jazz player or want to upgrade. Certainly there are fine examples that are cheaper (Ibanez 155 series is one I've owned) but these suggestions will fit the bill. |
#73
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Professional archtop
My definition of a "professional quality archtop" would be solid top & solid back, with special consideration given to arch shape, voicing, neck shape, etc. It's that extra 10% effort that separates a luthier-built instrument from a great factory instrument. IMO it's well worth the extra $$ to discuss ideal tone and playability with a professional luthier, pick your woods, finish options, and other special requirements that perhaps can't be met by a factory. That said, the quality of factory instruments is very high these days (I've been fortunate to have visited the Eastman factory in Beijing for R&D 5 times in the past 4 years). Great instruments at a fair price, but still lacking that special touch and accountability that a good luthier can provide. We all know good pickers don't NEED a handmade instrument, but it sure is awesome to hear an excellent musician bring out the potential of a thoughtfully made guitar. As long as it's fun, that's what matters.
Chuck Sanzone sanzoneguitars.com |
#74
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"most were bought with student loan money"
That tells you everything you need to know. If you have to borrow the money to get the box, it's not worth it. Student loans are like herpes. They don't go away. Find the best box you can afford -- I've seen several for sale recently for around $1000 or less that would be admirable purchases, and hear great things about the higher-end Ibanez Artcores -- and when you're making money and can afford something that you like better, then buy it. Don't let other people influence you in terms of what you "have" to have to be a "legitimate" musician, unless they're telling you talent, desire and discipline. If you have enough of those three, you will make people weep playing something cheap. |
#75
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"My defiinition of a "professional quality archtop" would be solid top & solid back,"
That being the case there are many professionals (and amateurs) playing non-professional guitars with great skill. |