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Old 07-31-2020, 01:26 PM
Lamenramen Lamenramen is offline
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Default All ears method disadvantages?

Hi, I am into fingerstyle and keep hearing that the greats never use tabs and transcribe all the music they want to play.

Is this really the fastest way to technical and musical proficiency? If so why? Should I wait until I am an advanced player?

I would imagine that working on your ears will help you get a better innate feeling of the fretboard and musicality but would I be better off looking at a few tabs first to improve my technique to a certain level and then go all ears? Otherwise I am spending all my energy figuring out a note when I could just look at the tab and focus on practicing the song sooner.
How many of you swear by the all ears method and what do you do when you get frustrated and now that the answer is a google search away.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:33 PM
rmp rmp is offline
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it's really like all of the above..

Reading score is like learning a different language. It's a process and it takes a long time to be really good at it. Understanding time signatures, and how to get the right phrasing just by looking at the notes, is a skill.

Learning by ear has it's merits, it also has it's blockers, there are some things you just can't quite sort out by ear, so the chance of misinterpreting things is pretty good. You can waste a lot of time trying to hear if that Am your playing, and you think it's close, but maybe it's really a Am/C?

Tab takes some of the edge of the heavy work of reading and if you're close with what your ear is telling you, the tab helps to remove the guess work.
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Old 07-31-2020, 02:05 PM
MartinGibsonFan MartinGibsonFan is offline
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I'm guessing the ' Greats ' have someone else transcribe their music for them.

Like Lindsey Buckingham, i'm sure Lindsey Buckingham didn't transcribe any of his guitar instrumentals, he wrote them, there was no need for transcription.

Someone afterwards came by and transcribed his songs for the general public.

This is in my opinion, since I don't know that for a fact.

Just like I'm sure the Beatles and Stones didn't do any transcribing either.

Why would the greats transcribe their music when they create their own music?

J
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Old 07-31-2020, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmp View Post
it's really like all of the above..

Reading score is like learning a different language. It's a process and it takes a long time to be really good at it. Understanding time signatures, and how to get the right phrasing just by looking at the notes, is a skill.

Learning by ear has it's merits, it also has it's blockers, there are some things you just can't quite sort out by ear, so the chance of misinterpreting things is pretty good. You can waste a lot of time trying to hear if that Am your playing, and you think it's close, but maybe it's really a Am/C?

Tab takes some of the edge of the heavy work of reading and if you're close with what your ear is telling you, the tab helps to remove the guess work.
Exactly.
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:22 PM
MThomson MThomson is offline
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Do whatever works for you to play the music you want to play and enjoy it.
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:37 PM
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TomB'sox TomB'sox is offline
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I also think it is a combo. Personally, I don't read any music and have been self taught and listen to a song and eventually figure it out which can lead to great frustration. I would give anything to be able to read music and just play a song first time through by what I see. This is not going to happen for me.

I would throw videos in as well as a way to learn. I learn a lot of songs by watching people play and then learn where the notes are from that. Sometimes I get it close and then play it the way I hear it and in the end I have written something quite different but that started out with a chord progression or notes that I had in my head from hearing the song.
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:56 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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I fel that it is the way your brain works. Some of us perceive music in a written form, whether notation, or tablature, and some don't.

I don't.

This is probably because I learnt, or absorbed much of what I needed before I thought about either written form.

I can read tablature, but it is painfully slow for me to convert it into finger movements whilst just watching someone play is a far quicker method ... for me.

We alllearn what we neede to, the way that siiots us best.

There are no rules.
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:04 PM
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I learn instrumental covers from listening to the original artist's rendition. The tab/notation shows me where to put my fingers, but listening tells me everything. I can see the notes on the paper and read them (C, D E, etc) but I can't get the music from it.

I'll try to copy the original at first and get it as close as I can. After that I will add my own little things.
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:06 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinGibsonFan View Post
Just like I'm sure the Beatles and Stones didn't do any transcribing either.

Why would the greats transcribe their music when they create their own music?

J
I think the question is about learning other people's music, not writing down one's own music.

The Beatles and Stones (like most pop musicians in those days) learned other people's songs mostly by ear. Sometimes, no doubt, they would have picked up chords and lyrics from songbooks, and learned a few things by having other musicians show them; but there was no tab in those days, and they didn't read music, so using their ears was the only way.
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:20 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamenramen View Post
Hi, I am into fingerstyle and keep hearing that the greats never use tabs and transcribe all the music they want to play.
It depends which "greats" you mean, and also what you mean by "transcribe".

Before the 1970s there was no tab to learn from. There were songbooks, but that was no good if you couldn't read notation. And if you couldn't read notation, then you wouldn't be "transcribing" anything, because that means writing down what you hear. And not much music was in songbooks in those days anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamenramen View Post
Is this really the fastest way to technical and musical proficiency? If so why? Should I wait until I am an advanced player?

I would imagine that working on your ears will help you get a better innate feeling of the fretboard and musicality but would I be better off looking at a few tabs first to improve my technique to a certain level and then go all ears? Otherwise I am spending all my energy figuring out a note when I could just look at the tab and focus on practicing the song sooner.
How many of you swear by the all ears method and what do you do when you get frustrated and now that the answer is a google search away.
You should learn music any way you can. Tab, notation, youtube lessons, using your ear, etc.
All the "greats" learned music any way they could, according to whatever was available in their day. They might have been lucky enough to have teachers, to sit at the feet of those they regarded as "greats". They certainly would have used their ears working stuff out from recordings (when there was no alternative). Whether they actually wrote anything down - or what they wrote - would depend on their memory and their notation skills. Mostly, I suspect, it would be memory and repetition.

Even if you learn from tab, you are using your ear (or you should be!) to check whether it sounds right. You can trust your ear; if something sounds wrong, it almost certainly is.

When you google tabs, you have to bear in mind that the people posting them may have no better ears than you. They just like transcribing stuff and uploading it. So the "answers" you find that way are not guaranteed correct.
IME, most of the time they are mostly correct. But never 100% - I mean literally never. Even if all the tab for one tune that is posted is 100% correct (and that does happen), the song is never complete. Nobody ever posts tab for vocal melodies for example, which I regard as crucial. If it's a song someone is singing, then you need the vocal. And even if it's an instrumental, or you only want the guitar accompaniment for a song, there are often bits missing. What's there might be reliable, but is that all of it?

But that's no reason not to use online tabs! It's just a reason to take them with a pinch of salt, as just one reference. Something to get you started, but not something to follow blindly.
I often check them out when I'm learning a tune. But I never take them as gospel. I always make my own transcriptions, using my ear (assisted by software) and notation.
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Last edited by JonPR; 08-01-2020 at 08:26 AM.
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  #11  
Old 08-01-2020, 08:31 AM
H165 H165 is offline
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Quote:
Hi, I am into fingerstyle and keep hearing that the greats never use tabs and transcribe all the music they want to play.
I hope I am assuming the correct defiinition of "transcription" in your question.

In commercially recorded popular music, The Wrecking Crew pretty much demonstrated proficiency with out using transcriptions. In fact, that's why they were nicknamed the Wrecking Crew, and that's how the long, messy, inefficient process of hiring primadonna studio musicians and catering to their whims came to an end.

I understand you are focused on fingerstyle, but, as noted above, there are a few "greats" out there that don't transcribe. Here's a quote"

" TOMMY EMMANUEL INTERVIEW [TEXT]

• A lot players these days use the internet and find tabs (which are invariably wrong) I find it hard to convince them that all the great players learnt a lot by learning by ear.

TE - I learnt everything by ear. I have never read a piece of music in my life, and I have never read a piece of tablature in my life. But I have many books [laughs]"
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:47 AM
BlueStarfish BlueStarfish is offline
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Music notation is great for some things and not so great for others. I think it’s a tremendous boost to be able to read music. But use the notation for what it does well, not for what it does poorly.

What does notation do well? In my opinion:

- Song form. “32 bar form AABA” etc.
- Melody
- Harmonic structure (e.g., the chord changes)
- Lyrics
- Bonus if any specific or unique chord voicings have the chord symbols with those little dots

The “lead sheet” music notation format delivers these features to me. Most lead sheets are not written specifically for guitarists — they will also be used by the keyboard player, singer, etc. So the guitar-specific stuff is not there. I find lead sheets a big help in learning a new song; if I can’t find a lead sheet for a song I want to learn I often start by transcribing one myself.

What does music notation NOT do well? For a guitarist, I think notation does a poor job of specifying exactly what our fingers are supposed to do at a particular moment. Lead sheet notation leaves it up to the guitarist to fill that in themselves. If more specificity is required, tabs work better (especially with alternate tunings, though I haven’t spent much time with those).

Ears good too ... that takes more patience I think.
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Old 08-01-2020, 10:18 AM
NormanKliman NormanKliman is offline
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Reading standard or tablature is always going to be useful and not something that will get in your way. I agree that most transcriptions are inaccurate and that you’re better off doing it yourself. You’ll gain a lot from that in itself. Now then, learning how to write in standard or tablature (with time values) is invaluable. You’ll be able to do your own transcribing (again, you’ll gain a lot just from learning to do that) and you’ll never truly forget another great idea again if you write it down and save it. My thing lately is to work out my own arrangements of stuff I hear in movies and recordings, and it’s fun to work out a bass line and a melody and then write them out together to see how they coincide. I could never do all that in my head with any certainty or precision.
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:26 PM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
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I can play by ear but learn fastest with notation. That way I do not have to know how it sounds before I can play it. There are many roads that lead to our mutual end.

JonPR said, "Before the 1970s there was no tab to learn from. There were songbooks, but that was no good if you couldn't read notation. And if you couldn't read notation, then you wouldn't be "transcribing" anything, because that means writing down what you hear. And not much music was in songbooks in those days anyway."

I disagree. I have thousands of songs in books published before the '70's.
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Old 08-02-2020, 09:14 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks View Post
JonPR said, "Before the 1970s there was no tab to learn from. There were songbooks, but that was no good if you couldn't read notation. And if you couldn't read notation, then you wouldn't be "transcribing" anything, because that means writing down what you hear. And not much music was in songbooks in those days anyway."

I disagree. I have thousands of songs in books published before the '70's.
I should have been clearer there. I posted that comment in haste!

When I said "not much music was in songbooks in those days anyway", of course that's not true! I was thinking of blues in particular, and contemporary folk music - the music I actually wanted to learn in those days was not generally published in notated form. There were the occasional collections of folk songs - even blues songs - but only vocal melody and - if you were lucky - chord symbols (and I certainly learned a lot from those). But nobody (AFAIK) was publishing books of blues guitar accompaniment, or folk fingerstyle.
When it came to rock music, you could get sheet music of individual songs (hits at least), and songbooks of famous artists were available, but always in "piano reduction"; you'd be lucky if guitar riffs were included (transcribed for piano), and improvised solos were never (IIRC) transcribed.

And I certainly saw no tab before the 1970s (by which time I wasn't interested anyway, as I was used to working things out by ear).
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Last edited by JonPR; 08-02-2020 at 09:24 AM.
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