The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 07-25-2020, 11:41 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanron View Post
I can't hear an E lower than the E on the D string in normal tuning, which of course would be the low E in Nashville Tuning.
Yes that's the one I meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanron View Post
However, as I am on PAYG internet I recorded the link in the first post into Audacity and saved it as a .mpg so maybe the quality is poor. Round about 9 seconds in he plays an F/C to a D/F#. This would work in NT if you can get your little finger to the fifth fret for both chords.
Yes, that's the one point (so far) that makes me think he might have tuned down. I can make that stretch myself (and no doubt it would have been easy enough for him), but it seems like a strange choice.
Then again, to tune just that string down makes some of the other chords less intuitive.

I shall soldier on, as I'm enjoying the sound of this tuning, although the tune is mysterious in other ways. The time signature seems to shift around between 2/4 and 3/4, and the melody (such as it is) seems to bear no resemblance to the original composition (sheet music can be found online).

BTW, it's actually a cheap old nylon-string of mine that I've restrung, so it's an additional novelty to have a classical guitar in nashville tuning!
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-26-2020, 03:50 AM
NormanKliman NormanKliman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 511
Default

I’m impressed that you guys are taking a shot at this with so little to go on. Can’t tell if you’re brave, reckless or just stubborn, so I’m going with talented.

You’ve inspired me to have another go at “Here Comes the Carnival,” also by Graham. I spent a few frustrating weeks trying to work it out in A and had to give up, but yesterday I had another listen and it seems to work in G. Recording’s in G sharp, so I guess i took a wrong turn, heh.
__________________
Resources for nylon-string guitarists. New soleá falseta collection: http://www.canteytoque.es/falsetacollectionNew_i.htm
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-27-2020, 09:10 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,447
Default

Update.

I'm taking a break from Davey's tune atm. Not because it's too difficult but IMO it's rather a weird arrangement in which the melody is not that clear.

Despite what I originally thought, he does follow the form of the melody, it's just somewhat lost in the middle of the chords. And he adds a chord or two which is not implied in the original (F and D/F#).

One issue with Davey's is that the tuning gives you two options for most of the melody notes, and it's hard to tell which he is choosing. Not only hard, but kind of pointless. You could do it either way, it would sound much the same. And - as I say - the melody is kind of buried in his version anyway; it seems to jump octaves now and then.

I'm tempted to arrange it myself - still in Nashville tuning for the hell of it, but maybe in D instead of G (in Nashville drop D)...

I'll keep you posted...
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.

Last edited by JonPR; 07-27-2020 at 09:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-27-2020, 09:34 AM
NormanKliman NormanKliman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 511
Default

In his recordings, it’s clear he had no problems with classical technique, which is not all that unusual, but I find it surprising because he was always a big fan of Broonzy. In the few videos of his, you can see he liked to “pinch” two strings with his thumb and another finger. That's helped me to fine tune a few parts of his stuff that I play. But beyond that I’m not able to draw many more conclusions about his playing.
__________________
Resources for nylon-string guitarists. New soleá falseta collection: http://www.canteytoque.es/falsetacollectionNew_i.htm
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-28-2020, 03:30 AM
JohnChess JohnChess is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Kingston-upon-Thames, England
Posts: 2
Default

My take on this: when I clicked on the YouTube link, I immediately recognised the photo of Davey Graham from the cover of his album 'The Complete Guitarist' which I have on vinyl from when it was released in the 1970s. Unfortunately, this particular track wasn't on it as it was a bonus track when the album was later released as a CD.

However, several of the tracks on The Complete Guitarist featured the tuning EADEAE and I reckon this could be the one you are looking for as Davey Graham was really into it at the time. The vinyl album came with an eight-page insert which I still have, featuring the tab for ten tracks, most of which are set in EADEAE. It's a great tuning which makes everything sound very Irish and, after a while, comes very naturally to the fingers.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-28-2020, 09:40 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,447
Default

OK, I have it done!

Just to confirm, it's in Nashville tuning - or "high strung guitar" as described on the sleevenotes posted earlier: EADGBE, no capo, with strings 6-5-4-3 an octave higher. I.e, same as 12-string but with the low-pitched pairs removed (and strings 2-1 single too).

I have a full version with staff notation and tab, with the original guide melody too, as well as a tab-only version.

The staff notation for the guitar is not a lot of use in this tuning, tbh, but the original melody helps make sense of how the tune goes. As I said earlier, the tuning means the melody sometimes skips octaves, and harmony notes often occur above the melody, which makes it hard to follow.

There's a lot of repeats, but slight variations each time, so I have it full length. The tab-only version is just one page (and that has rhythms, so the staff notation is superfluous).

Anybody wants it, pm me your email and I'll send a PDF. State which version you want! Melody+notation+tab; melody+tab; tab only.

Obviously you need to have a guitar in nashville tuning to sound like Davey's version, but it actually works well in standard too.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-28-2020, 09:45 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnChess View Post
The vinyl album came with an eight-page insert which I still have, featuring the tab for ten tracks, most of which are set in EADEAE. It's a great tuning which makes everything sound very Irish and, after a while, comes very naturally to the fingers.
I'd love to see that insert! Any chance you could post images? Or just list those ten titles and the tunings, that would be enough.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-28-2020, 01:11 PM
NormanKliman NormanKliman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnChess View Post
My take on this: when I clicked on the YouTube link, I immediately recognised the photo of Davey Graham from the cover of his album 'The Complete Guitarist' which I have on vinyl from when it was released in the 1970s. Unfortunately, this particular track wasn't on it as it was a bonus track when the album was later released as a CD.

However, several of the tracks on The Complete Guitarist featured the tuning EADEAE and I reckon this could be the one you are looking for as Davey Graham was really into it at the time. The vinyl album came with an eight-page insert which I still have, featuring the tab for ten tracks, most of which are set in EADEAE. It's a great tuning which makes everything sound very Irish and, after a while, comes very naturally to the fingers.
Please tell us about those tabs. I have the vinyl too but without the insert and have been interested for a long time. Is Lashtal's Room also EADEAE?
__________________
Resources for nylon-string guitarists. New soleá falseta collection: http://www.canteytoque.es/falsetacollectionNew_i.htm
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-28-2020, 03:19 PM
stanron stanron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,428
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post

I have a full version with staff notation and tab, with the original guide melody too, as well as a tab-only version.

The staff notation for the guitar is not a lot of use in this tuning, tbh, but the original melody helps make sense of how the tune goes.
I had a think about how I would notate Nashville guitar. I wondered if the duplication of notes of the same pitch on the octave strings could cause confusion and thought that a staff for the top three strings and a separate staff for the lower three strings might simplify reading the score. It was simple enough in Musescore to set this up. Two notation staffs and one tab staff beneath. Would the extra complexity of this be worthwhile?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-28-2020, 06:36 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanron View Post
I had a think about how I would notate Nashville guitar. I wondered if the duplication of notes of the same pitch on the octave strings could cause confusion and thought that a staff for the top three strings and a separate staff for the lower three strings might simplify reading the score. It was simple enough in Musescore to set this up. Two notation staffs and one tab staff beneath. Would the extra complexity of this be worthwhile?
I just tried it with this tune, and it didn't really offer any benefit.

Firstly, it's the lower four strings that are tuned higher.

Secondly, his melody moves around between the top three strings, and jumps the octave when it's on the 3rd string. (It's as if he arranged it for normal 6-string, and made no adjustments for playing it in nashville tuning!)

Thirdly, there are occasional harmony notes (chord tones) on 3rd or 2nd string, so a 2-stave separation doesn't make a lot of sense.

Normally I prefer to read notation than tab, but in this case I find the tab way easier to follow. It even represents the melody better, because the top two strings look higher than the other four, even though they're pitched lower than the D-G.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-29-2020, 04:27 AM
stanron stanron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,428
Default

I hadn't got the octave G bit. Ah well. Could you get the high A note in the F and D/F# chords on the octave G string or is it just not worth it?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-29-2020, 08:41 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanron View Post
I hadn't got the octave G bit. Ah well. Could you get the high A note in the F and D/F# chords on the octave G string or is it just not worth it?
Easily, and that's what he does. The problems are with the melody.

Here's an example of what I mean. The concluding melodic phrase of the tune is this, if you were playing on a normal guitar:

---------------|---
-3-0-----0-----|---
-----0-2----2--|0--
---------------|---
---------------|---
---------------|---

But because the G string is an octave higher, what comes out is this sound:

-----3-5----5--|3--
-3-0-----0-----|---
---------------|---
---------------|---
---------------|---
---------------|---

- and mixed in with harmonies too, so the melody tends to get lost. The same octave displacements occur everywhere the tune goes on to the 3rd string.

Technically the whole thing is not as hard as it sounds, and the arrangement is tight and faithful to the original tune (aside from those inserted F and D/F# chords); but he's not really exploited the charms of the tuning at all (and there are plenty).
I can play it - I'll see if I can post a video shortly - but it's oddly unsatisfying. Partly because I don't actually think the melody is that great anyway!
I.e., he's taken a not very special bagpipe tune, made a very pedestrian arrangement for normal 6-string, and then (for some reason) played it on a high-strung guitar. And it's also strangely jaunty for such a dark subject.

Still, I'm quite involved in this tuning for its own sake - there are beautiful sounds to be had.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-29-2020, 09:36 AM
MThomson MThomson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 711
Default

With regards to the jauntiness, I've known this tune for a long time as the Scots folk song "Freedom Come All Ye" and I've often heard played at this tempo and is possibly a more positive/hopeful subject matter than the original.
__________________
Martin

Last edited by MThomson; 07-29-2020 at 09:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-29-2020, 12:04 PM
NormanKliman NormanKliman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 511
Default

Heh, stupid Flanders!
__________________
Resources for nylon-string guitarists. New soleá falseta collection: http://www.canteytoque.es/falsetacollectionNew_i.htm
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-30-2020, 10:32 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MThomson View Post
With regards to the jauntiness, I've known this tune for a long time as the Scots folk song "Freedom Come All Ye" and I've often heard played at this tempo and is possibly a more positive/hopeful subject matter than the original.
Interesting! I found the tune credited to one John MacLellan, as a bagpipe retreat:



But yes, this (Freedom Come All Ye) is clearly the same melody:



- and that does seem to be an old traditional tune.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=