Can anyone hear this tuning? Davey Graham's Bloody Fields of Flanders...

Jiinglelocks · #1 07-24-2020, 03:35 AM

Hi there, I'm new here so I hope this is the right place to post. I have been trying to work out Bloody Fields of Flanders by Davey Graham. It's a lovely tune and simple enough to work out by ear I'm sure. I've managed to pick out bits and pieces and I'm applying bits of guitar music theory that I'm currently learning, but I'm fairly certain it's in some sort of open tuning. I wondered if anyone here has any suggestions? It seems an obscure one even by Davey Graham's standards

so I can't find any covers or performances to watch a fretboard.

NormanKliman · #2 07-24-2020, 03:48 AM

Well, there's this video.

Sounds like the same instrument. Welcome to the AGF, by the way. I'm new, too, and I got very good responses here to a post about Davy Graham a few months ago.

stanron · #3 07-24-2020, 06:22 AM

There's nothing in that that sounds like an open tuning. It sounds like normal tuning or possibly dropped D. It also sounds as if it is capoed up quite a bit. It's coming out as the key of G so it could be capo on the 5th fret playing in D, so you could have a dropped D tuning, or 7th fret playing in C. Maybe it's my computer but I can't hear any low notes.

JonnyBGood · #4 07-24-2020, 07:35 AM

Interesting piece, has a very renaissance feel to it. But I'm not convinced that's even a guitar.

Possibly a capoed Bouzouki? Davey recorded with numerous ethic stringed instruments.

JonPR · #5 07-24-2020, 10:06 AM

I've just been trying to work this out, and my guess is DADGAD capo 5. It all fits pretty well there, and there are one two moment which point strongly that way.

It does sound a little unlike a normal guitar, and I'm wondering if it's a 12-string. I don't think its a bouzouki (there are occasional bass G's, and arpeggios implying more than 4 strings), but it may be a lute - but with metal strings?
Not all the strings sound double though. A lot of the resonance could be coming from unisons on neighbouring strings.

Anyway, it all seems playable (so far) on 6-string in DADGAD. I'll let you know if (and when) I work the whole thing out, but I have other things to do in the next day or two...

stanron · #6 07-24-2020, 12:17 PM

I can't agree with DADGAD for this. I was convinced it was normal tuning until I heard the second note which sounds like an open B. That's not available in normal tuning at the fifth fret and it's not there in DADGAD either. It is there in open D at the fifth fret on the third string. Those first two chords seem to be this;

Code:

capo 5 open D tuning

G╓──2─────0────────┐
D╟────────0────────┤
B╟──3──0───────────┤
G╟──2─────0────────┤
D╟──4──────────────┤
G╙─────────────────┘

I've not looked at the rest of it in any depth though.

JonnyBGood · #7 07-24-2020, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR

I've just been trying to work this out, and my guess is DADGAD capo 5. It all fits pretty well there, and there are one two moment which point strongly that way.

It does sound a little unlike a normal guitar, and I'm wondering if it's a 12-string. I don't think its a bouzouki (there are occasional bass G's, and arpeggios implying more than 4 strings), but it may be a lute - but with metal strings?

Ok, I've got it. Not a bouzouki and didn't sound like DADGAD to me either but I knew there was something weird with those ultra high basses ....he's playing a high strung guitar (Nashville tuning)

https://go.platformpurple.com/shop/1...t&product=1776

Good luck retuning your guitar to work out that tune Jon! ;-)

JonPR · #8 07-24-2020, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Ok, I've got it. Not a bouzouki and didn't sound like DADGAD to me either but I knew there was something weird with those ultra high basses ....he's playing a high strung guitar (Nashville tuning)

https://go.platformpurple.com/shop/1...t&product=1776

Good luck retuning your guitar to work out that tune Jon! ;-)

Thanks! Great find!
I knew DADGAD didn't sound quite right. I mean, the notes are all there, and the first few bars sit under fingers quite well in DADGAD (capo 5), but there are octave sounds missing.
I've never tried Nashville tuning, but now I'm tempted...

Looks like I'll be buying that album too...

Jiinglelocks · #9 07-25-2020, 12:57 AM

Thanks for the great replies everyone. That's some nice detective work in finding the Nashville tuning JonnyBGood, I knew there was something not quite standard about the tune, just couldn't place it! I've also never heard about Nashville tuning before and now I'm also tempted to give it a try

JonnyBGood · #10 07-25-2020, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR

I've never tried Nashville tuning, but now I'm tempted...

Me neither, but I'm not tuning my bass strings up an octave without a pair of safety goggles and my guitar tech on standby ;-)

He has quite a diverse repertoire, I didn't realise. Two classics from the classical repertoire on that album as well as well as all the folk and ethnically diverse material.

JonPR · #11 07-25-2020, 04:06 AM

So - before I dive into it again - does anyone have any opinion on whether the Nashville tuning is standard (EADGBE), or if it's an open tuning? With or without capo?
I'm keeping all options open! Still maybe DADF#AD with capo on 5?

Kenny B · #12 07-25-2020, 06:33 AM

Opinions??? Well you can use the Nashville tuned guitar to do any tuning you want before a string breaks... I mean, there is no set rules on exactly what is Nashville tuning to my knowledge. You can search the history of Nashville tuning and maybe find out what it was originally intended for.

I have an older D40 Guild that I had set up for Nashville tuning many years ago and like what it has to offer. I like it in open D and DADGAD, or even drop D. I don't normally capo it, but all is possible.

Actually, if you have a guitar laying around that does not get much play time, it is a good idea to buy a set of "Nashville" strings and give it a go. So much fun. Takes a lighter touch but once you get used to it, it sounds so neat.

stanron · #13 07-25-2020, 07:43 AM

If the 'Martin High Strung Guitar' was a standard Martin with Nashville tuning then I would go with capo 5. That note between the first two chords, the B that sounds like an open second string in normal tuning, is fourth fret on the fourth string and, in Nashville tuning, it's also fourth fret on the sixth string. It sounds like an open string picked for rhythmical effect and it's only there on an open string in open D.The first two chords are D7 to G. In DADGAD and in Normal tuning, with capo 5, the third string is a C. To my ears a C note between a D7 chord and a G would sound better than a B yet the B is what gets played.

On a much shorter scale instrument the capo could be lower or not even there at all. Portugal and South America have very short scale 12 string guitars and Martin have made a wide range of guitar related stuff. Are there any album notes with more information?

JonPR · #14 07-25-2020, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanron

If the 'Martin High Strung Guitar' was a standard Martin with Nashville tuning then I would go with capo 5. That note between the first two chords, the B that sounds like an open second string in normal tuning, is fourth fret on the fourth string and, in Nashville tuning, it's also fourth fret on the sixth string. It sounds like an open string picked for rhythmical effect and it's only there on an open string in open D.The first two chords are D7 to G. In DADGAD and in Normal tuning, with capo 5, the third string is a C. To my ears a C note between a D7 chord and a G would sound better than a B yet the B is what gets played.

On a much shorter scale instrument the capo could be lower or not even there at all. Portugal and South America have very short scale 12 string guitars and Martin have made a wide range of guitar related stuff. Are there any album notes with more information?

Just experimenting now with my restrung guitar, and it works so far in Nashville EADGBE.
There is a low E, so there can't be a capo unless he also tuned at least that string down. And the first couple of bars all sound right with fairly normal cowboy chord shapes (G, C, Am) - although the opening one needs to be a rather unusual D/F# 2-x-0-x-3-5; the following B note could then be the open 2nd string or 2nd fret A string (same pitch).

stanron · #15 07-25-2020, 10:47 AM

I can't hear an E lower than the E on the D string in normal tuning, which of course would be the low E in Nashville Tuning. However, as I am on PAYG internet I recorded the link in the first post into Audacity and saved it as a .mpg so maybe the quality is poor. Round about 9 seconds in he plays an F/C to a D/F#. This would work in NT if you can get your little finger to the fifth fret for both chords. My increasingly arthritic hands can't do that. It would be easier on a short scale instrument. It's a pain trying to figure out which strings are octave and which are not. As you have a guitar in NT I'm going to leave you to it. Best of luck.