The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 07-16-2020, 03:10 PM
lpa53 lpa53 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Flat Rock, NC
Posts: 1,697
Default Changing Keys During Song with Capo?

I'm figuring out a new song that has a key change at the end, and while I've been able to do a change on a few songs in my repertoire, this one has left hand fingering that, as far as I can figure from the two audio versions I've been able to find, can only be done with particular left hand fingering, thus not easily lending itself to key change. I could just forget the modulation but it does add something to the song.

The two versions, one a recording and one a live performance, have a gap of silence just before the change and I was thinking of using a capo and shifting it in that gap. Is this a big no-no? I've seen James Taylor do multiple capo moves on "Your Smiling Face", but has anyone seen other good players do this?

__________________
1967 Aria Classical
1974 Guild D50
2009 Kenny Hill New World Player Classical
2009 Hoffman SJ
2011 Hoffman SJ 12

https://paulashley.weebly.com/
https://www.youtube.com/c/PaulAshley
https://www.reverbnation.com/paulashley
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-16-2020, 03:38 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 2,441
Default

Most good players just figure out how to finger it.

Michael Johnson (RIP) was certainly good enough. Truly a great player with a velvet voice.

But if you can do it smoothly, go for it. Tommy Emmanuel does some crowd-pleasing moves with his capo.
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
2020 Irvin SJ cutaway (build thread)
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-16-2020, 06:42 PM
MartinGibsonFan MartinGibsonFan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: 'Sconsin
Posts: 833
Default

This seems to be played in G# with E and A chord forms with index at the 4th fret, along with an A chord form at the 6th fret.

Then, when the key change is done, everything slides up one fret.

So you're playing with the index at the 5th fret with the A chord form at the 7th fret (Emaj)

That's how I read that video.

J
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-16-2020, 07:25 PM
lpa53 lpa53 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Flat Rock, NC
Posts: 1,697
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinGibsonFan View Post
This seems to be played in G# with E and A chord forms with index at the 4th fret, along with an A chord form at the 6th fret.

Then, when the key change is done, everything slides up one fret.

So you're playing with the index at the 5th fret with the A chord form at the 7th fret (Emaj)

That's how I read that video.

J
I've worked out a lot of Michael Johnson tunes and have a good sense of what he does. He uses a lot of dropped D tuning and especially with songs written by Hugh Prestwood, which this one is. I play it Dropped D with the capo at the first fret and it sounds exactly like the audio. How to modulate a dropped-D seems a bit tough, and in top of that issue, there are a lot of open stings plucked in partial chords.
__________________
1967 Aria Classical
1974 Guild D50
2009 Kenny Hill New World Player Classical
2009 Hoffman SJ
2011 Hoffman SJ 12

https://paulashley.weebly.com/
https://www.youtube.com/c/PaulAshley
https://www.reverbnation.com/paulashley
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-16-2020, 10:15 PM
DavidE DavidE is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 4,106
Default

There's always the roller capo which is designed to do exactly what you're talking about. I watched Greg Bennett demo it at a NAMM show a whole bunch of years ago. I got one and didn't have the coordination to make it work. LOL.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-17-2020, 12:27 AM
takamineGD93 takamineGD93 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 406
Default

I don't have the time to lissen to everything that's posted here. But when I play songs like me and Bobby Mcgee or Devils right hand where there is a key change. I first find the chords that make it easier for me to play that change.

Then I use the capo to find where I can sing that song the best.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-17-2020, 04:02 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Huntington Station, New York
Posts: 7,600
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpa53 View Post
I've worked out a lot of Michael Johnson tunes and have a good sense of what he does. He uses a lot of dropped D tuning and especially with songs written by Hugh Prestwood, which this one is. I play it Dropped D with the capo at the first fret and it sounds exactly like the audio. How to modulate a dropped-D seems a bit tough, and in top of that issue, there are a lot of open stings plucked in partial chords.
Talk is cheap:



HE
__________________
My New Website!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-17-2020, 05:46 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,446
Default

I bought one of those roller capos, but found it was unreliable. It sometimes rolled the 6th or 1st string right off the edge of the fretboard! It certainly needs very careful manipulation to keep it straight, and IME it might be just as quick/reliable (if there is a small gap in the music) to use a normal capo.

Some normal capos can be slid successfully anyway.
John Martyn used to slide a standard (cheap) elastic capo on a deliberately gimmicky tune back in the 60s. Here he is demonstrating it, 10 years after I first saw him do it (timestamp skipping the lengthy spoken intro):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c80pa9lCFjQ&t=75
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-17-2020, 06:15 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,950
Default

David Wilcox does it on Rusty Old American Dream.
The change happens at about the 1:57 mark.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-17-2020, 06:58 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,446
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
David Wilcox does it on Rusty Old American Dream.
The change happens at about the 1:57 mark.
Yes! The right-handed method! While holding a chord!
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-17-2020, 07:06 AM
MartinGibsonFan MartinGibsonFan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: 'Sconsin
Posts: 833
Default

If you're playing Cowboy chords, changing keys with a capo is a piece of cake. Just slap on the capo, use the same chord shapes, and you're done.

Without a Capo, you need to calculate things out.

Let's say you have a song (progression) that goes from Dmaj to Amaj to Gmaj.

You want to change keys and go up one full step?

Your song (progression) in the new key would be Emaj to Bmaj to Amaj.

Move up the key change up a half step?

Your song (progression) in the new key would be Fmaj to C to Bb.

And so on (hope I got that correct) but hopefully, you get the picture.

I guess the caveat is that your changing keys but keeping the same progression. This method won't work if you change keys and have a new set of progressions, but it still might be helpful to figure things out.

J
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-18-2020, 09:10 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,950
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinGibsonFan View Post
If you're playing Cowboy chords, changing keys with a capo is a piece of cake. Just slap on the capo, use the same chord shapes, and you're done.

Without a Capo, you need to calculate things out.

Let's say you have a song (progression) that goes from Dmaj to Amaj to Gmaj.

You want to change keys and go up one full step?

Your song (progression) in the new key would be Emaj to Bmaj to Amaj.

Move up the key change up a half step?

Your song (progression) in the new key would be Fmaj to C to Bb.

And so on (hope I got that correct) but hopefully, you get the picture.

I guess the caveat is that your changing keys but keeping the same progression. This method won't work if you change keys and have a new set of progressions, but it still might be helpful to figure things out.

J
That's not what's actually being discussed. The OP was asking about moving the capo during a song to facilitate the key modulation.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-18-2020, 09:34 AM
PHJim PHJim is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Port Hope, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 667
Default

I have a "Quickdraw" capo that my friend Steafan gave me. I keep it on my octave mandolin and it slides very easily from fret to fret without losing a beat.
Here's Steafan playing with his wife Saskia and using a Quickdraw capo. I'm pretty sure he's in DADGAD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFGlOAO3pVU

https://mcneelamusic.com/quick-draw-capo/
__________________
Jim
_____________________
-1962 Martin D-21
-1950 Gibson LG1
-1958 Goya M-26
-Various banjos, mandolins, dulcimers, ukuleles, Autoharps, mouth harps. . .

Last edited by PHJim; 07-18-2020 at 09:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-18-2020, 09:56 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,446
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHJim View Post
I have a "Quickdraw" capo that my friend Steafan gave me. I keep it on my octave mandolin and it slides very easily from fret to fret without losing a beat.
Here's Steafan playing with his wife Saskia and using a Quickdraw capo. I'm pretty sure he's in DADGAD.
Thanks! Sold! (One more type of capo to add to my growing collection...)
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-18-2020, 02:41 PM
lpa53 lpa53 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Flat Rock, NC
Posts: 1,697
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHJim View Post
I have a "Quickdraw" capo that my friend Steafan gave me. I keep it on my octave mandolin and it slides very easily from fret to fret without losing a beat.
Here's Steafan playing with his wife Saskia and using a Quickdraw capo. I'm pretty sure he's in DADGAD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFGlOAO3pVU

https://mcneelamusic.com/quick-draw-capo/
I may look into this one. One site said it was available for classicasl guitar but another just said "guitar".
__________________
1967 Aria Classical
1974 Guild D50
2009 Kenny Hill New World Player Classical
2009 Hoffman SJ
2011 Hoffman SJ 12

https://paulashley.weebly.com/
https://www.youtube.com/c/PaulAshley
https://www.reverbnation.com/paulashley
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=