Advice on Free Standing DIY acoustic Panels

[AcousticDreams]

I need to mostly make Free standing panels with legs. Most of the Wall space is already taken. (Although I will also be making a few wall panels) Free standing Acoustic Panels will enable me to surround my guitar & voice when needed, and then put aside.

I have been a wood worker of sorts most of my life and have free access to a wood working shop.

I will have no problem making the frame with very strong joints.

Some questions:

1. What Thickness should I make the Free Standing panels? 1 or 2 inch?

2. What material will work best for Free Standing Panels
Rockwool(now called Roxul) 60? or ATS rigid Fiberglass? ( according to the chart below ATS rigid has the same specifications as Corning 703)
+ I assume that type of material will make a difference because these panels will be moved around a lot. One material might perform better for movement? OR will it make no difference at all?
++The Free Standing panel will be material covered on Both sides due to its Free standing nature. Will the type of inner material be a factor for both sides being covered?
+++ If Fiberglass is the choice, is there any kind of hazards to working with this material?

3. LEG design?
Basically I was just thinking about Two legs perpendicular to the frame. ( flat resting on the ground) Approximately TWO& One half feet long? OR more? Could build with nice wood or if there are some metal or already remade feet design? Your recommendations?

4 What is the Best place to buy Rockwool 60 or ATS rigid Fiberglass?
I found a very good place back East…but Shipping to California will cost as much as the product itself.
It would save lots of money If I can pick them up myself. Are there Standard places where one can order Rockwell or ATS?

5. Does outer Fabric material make any sonic differences since it will either have Rockwood or ATS on the inside? What do you recommend?

[alohachris]

Aloha Victor,

Here's a re-print of a previous post. There have been many here RE: the necessity of Room Treatment for controlling your space, maximizing your gear & achieving consistency & clarity in your home recordings.

Here are a few Room Treatment Resources:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...ing-acoustics/

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/studio.php

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

http://realtraps.com/art_basics.htm

https://ledgernote.com/columns/studi...nels-and-foam/

More available if required.

Just build 2-to-9 of Fran's moveable, portable, storable OC 703 broadband absorbers (per his video above) & you don't need an expensive, permanent built in studio. You can control most spaces with that. Everything you need to build these 4"x2'x4' panels is available cheaply at Walmart. The OC 703 rigid fiberglass (what all pro studio's use) can be ordered through an acoustic materials house. Save money! DIY.

Take control of those nasty room reflections & treat your room. Achieve the clear, full-spectrum, un-muddy & musical sounding recordings you deserve. It's the ONLY way to maximize your gear & signal chain. It will make the biggest difference in your recordings, even more than any gear you buy!

Buy the 2"x2'x4' OC 703 panels & double them up. Use Loctite 200 or 300 spray adhesive. Choose a cover material & apply that at the corners & edges with hot-melt glue (fr. Walmart). The panels are thick enough at 4" thick to be free-standing w/o wooden frames (whose hard surfaces defeats the purpose of the absorbers, IMO - no need). Check out Fran's video above.

When working with OC703, remember its rigid fiberglass & a building material. Wear eye protection, a mask, gloves & long sleeves. Don't touch it or let it brush up against you. Make the panels outside if you can. I made 22 broadband absorbers & never had a single issue in working with it.

You'll get arguments here from the Roxul fans who champion its lack of health or working issues & similar attributes. But I have never seen or heard of a large pro studio treated with it. Use OC 703, Victor. You should have no problem finding a supply house in SoCal.

PM me if you have questions about how to make your own treatment, Victor.

Good Luck!

alohachris

[ChuckS]

I made 5 panels that are 5'x2'x4" and 1 panel that is 4'x2'x4". The 5' panels have door hinges on them so I can connect them together and position them into a U shape. They are high enough to work when resting on the floor, as I play sitting down. They don't need legs when connected and arranged in a V or a U shape. I will sometimes put a panel over the top of the U shape to absorb reflections off the ceiling. When I want to take it down I disassemble by pulling out the hinge pins. I used Roxul Rockboard 80; it's heavy but has very good absorption even at lower frequencies, especially going with 4" depth. It comes in 4'x2'x2" panels. I ripped some pine into 4" widths for the frame and got some fairly open material to cover them with.

The Roxul is typically sold through commercial insulation suppliers, and some of them will sell to the public. Also, some Do It Best hardware stores will order it in for you.

Burlap is a cheap, open weave covering but I didn't like the smell or the coarseness. I ordered in an open weave fabric.

[Chipotle]

tl;dr at the end....

I have recently made panels using both (the Rockwool was actually their "consumer" Safe'n'Sound, which is a less dense version of the same mineral wool).

Acoustically, there won't be much difference for the same thickness. Just go by the specs, either will work. 2" minimum is recommended. 4" won't get you that much extra at the higher frequencies but will be better at the low end (below 500Hz). So for gobos, it depends a bit on how your room is otherwise treated. If you've already got good bass trapping, you might just use 2" panels. Of course, thicker is better if you don't mind the extra size and weight.

The Rockwool is a bit floppier than the fiberglass but either one can easily be contained by fabric wrapped around a wood frame. I didn't want to fuss with glue.

My corner traps used 6" of the Rockwool in a 1x6 wood frame. I just bought extra wide med-weight cotton at the fabric store, wrapped it around the frame and stapled it.

For the wall panels, I purchased some nice acoustic fabric from Acoustimac (not too expensive, $14/yd for the fire-resistant stuff). Very breathable but stretchier than the cotton. This went on the front a 1x4" frame with two 2" OC703 batts. The backside got a layer of muslin.

The OC703 isn't bad to work with at all. Some fibers will come off but not that bad. Definitely wear gloves as it can be irritating. If you're in an enclosed space and want to be careful, wear a mask. I think if you were in a well vented area and handled the 703 well, you might not even need that.

Both types of insulation can have color variations, blotches etc. so if you want things to look nice, be sure to get a non-see-through fabric. The ATS Acoustic fabric looks great; on the muslin side you can see the mottling of the fiberglass batts underneath.

I haven't made feet yet for the two I have as gobos. I was thinking a couple 18" pieces of 1x6, with dowels or something to pop the panel onto. If the feet were permanent, just screw them in. The panels themselves aren't that heavy... my 24"x48"x4" panels weigh just 13 pounds. Both GIK and Acoustimac have free-standing options. You might browse their web site for designs.

Search for local insulation contractors for the materials. I found a place locally that sells to the public, so I was able to get a pack of 12 2" OC703 batts to pick up. If not, the online places like GIK, Acoustimac and ATS Acoustics sell DIY materials. The shipping can cost quite a bit though, and there may be a minimum order.

Which brings me to my final note. I didn't save all that much by going DIY. The insulation was still expensive, and when it was all said and done I didn't even "earn" minimum wage for the time spent building them. The savings, all said and done, was maybe $30 per panel. That adds up if you're doing a lot (I made 14 panels, a $420 savings) but if you are only making a few, maybe not so much. That's especially true if you have to buy a large quantity of insulation for a minimum order.

tl;dr: Make at least 2" thick panels, 4" are better if you don't mind the extra size. The filling material is "immaterial" if the specs are the same. For insulation, call around to suppliers who might sell from the public, or purchase online from acoustic panel suppliers. And you might not save as much as you think going DIY.

[jim1960]

This is worth watching.

[KevWind]

I personally prefer a minimum of 4 inch thick/depth absorption panels (free standing or wall mount)

Most absorption material is not very heavy relative to cubic dimension. So 1" by 4" pine (butt jointed) and screwed is sufficient for the internal frame for the panels themselves IMO .

These are the stands I made for my 2 ft wide, by 4 ft tall, by 4 inch depth, free standing panels (made out of 1 X 4
alder, left over from a house interior trim job)
Because I almost always record standing up the hight is set so the center of the 4 ft. height of the panel, is at the level of sound hole of my guitar/

Note (the two screw holes) I simply run a screw from the outside of the panel leg, into the internal pine frame of the panel


The horizontal brace (1/2 way down the vertical leg) supports the bottom of the panel

[keith.rogers]

I've found and used the Roxul/Rockwool Safe'n'Sound material at a local Lowe's, but it's 3.5" and not rigid like their Rockboard product, and they only stock the 15" width, i.e., the kind for between wall studs. Still, it's a good product and works fine if you don't mind using 1x4 framing. I made some free-standing panels that are double-wide from 4 pieces of the 2nd bundle I used for my room.

It does come in 24" width, and there's Rockboard. As suggested, I'd call every insulation and building supply place that generally serves the trades directly and see if you can get them to tack on an order of that or the OC products for you. Otherwise, as you found, the shipping will pretty well eliminate much advantage to DIY, except that you can make more custom sized/finished pieces, perhaps. (Shipping costs were why I stuck with what I could go pick up.)

Audio-wise, I think those materials are all essentially equivalent, especially in this kind of application.





P.S. Always meant to build some adjustable legs but have not gotten round to it. I am not really focused on recording at home - it's been mostly a mixing room, or just myself in there, occasionally one other (a tight squeeze) but never worried about bleed, TBH.

[Fran Guidry]

I'm not an experienced woodworker and am lacking in tools, so I skipped the frame and just wrapped some OC703 4" in fabric. The panels are self supporting when leaned against each other in pairs, I sometimes use a straightened coat hanger or stiff wire to clip panels together. Even two panels, positioned behind the mics, did a decent job of knocking down early reflections in a small room.

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/

Fran

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

I'm not an experienced woodworker and am lacking in tools

Tbh, not much "woodworking" experience required. If you have a tape measure, a screwdriver, a hand saw and a drill, and can screw two pieces of wood together, you can make simple frames out of 1x4s. Use a staple gun to attach the fabric to the frame.

The Rockwool Safe'n'Sound is much lower density than the Rockboard products or OC703. It won't have nearly the same sound attenuation. That's why I did two batts for a total of 6" depth when I used it for corner traps. The wires that keith.rogers has on his to hold the insulation in are probably not necessary--mine get held in just fine by the fabric wrapping.

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

Tbh, not much "woodworking" experience required. If you have a tape measure, a screwdriver, a hand saw and a drill, and can screw two pieces of wood together, you can make simple frames out of 1x4s. Use a staple gun to attach the fabric to the frame.

The Rockwool Safe'n'Sound is much lower density than the Rockboard products or OC703. It won't have nearly the same sound attenuation. That's why I did two batts for a total of 6" depth when I used it for corner traps. The wires that keith.rogers has on his to hold the insulation in are probably not necessary--mine get held in just fine by the fabric wrapping.

My corner traps are double thickness (air gap between) using 1x8s.

I found that without a mitre saw the squareness of joints wasn't very satisfactory, at least not consistently square. Maybe your skil-saw "skills" are better than mine...

The baling wire is just something I started doing when I wasn't sure how it would hold. Definitely useful in the cloud configuration, but, yeah, probably not necessary everywhere. I just didn't want the stuff to start pooching out after a year or so hanging on the wall.

For broadband traps, I think the Safe'n'Sound is Ok. I would like to have had access to denser 2" material but the bundles at Lowe's were all I found, though I didn't call *everywhere*. (You'd think the denser material would be around, but I can say that higher cost insulation, in general, is not at the top of builder priorities here, since using energy is probably seen as a good thing by a lot of folks...)

P.S. I don't think I'd say Safe'n'Sound is "much lower" density. But, compare here:
https://cdn01.rockwool.com/siteasset...20applications.
https://dcpd6wotaa0mb.cloudfront.net...=1582773799000

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

I found that without a mitre saw the squareness of joints wasn't very satisfactory, at least not consistently square. Maybe your skil-saw "skills" are better than mine...

I just lined up the corners using a carpenter's square before I screwed it together. Not perfectly square, but square enough. My carpentry skills are nothing to write home about!

Seems like, roughly, 3" of Safe'n'Sound gets you similar performance of around 2" OC703.

Also, a thing to be aware of for those hanging panels on walls: an air gap behind the panel, equal to the thickness of the panel, will give you even better sound absorption. The sound energy gets absorbed once on the way in, then again on the way out after bouncing off the wall. Many commercial panels have a plywood backer that would prevent this. I ordered a few from Acoustimac and had to specially request they leave the wood backing off.

[AcousticDreams]

Thank all of you so much: Alohachris, ChuckS, Chipotle , Jim1960, KevWind, Keith.Rogers, & Fran Guidry,

For the time and effort you put in with videos, pictures and opinions.
A lot of information to process(Still have not made it all the way through Jim1960 video). And I need to go over and watch all the videos in depth.

Right now my first thoughts are to combine a little bit from everyone's ideas, with a few of my own. I am still in the design process. I am not quick...I put a lot of thought into what I build.

Beauty is part of who I am. So I do want these panels to look good as well. I unfortunately have a ton of life hobbies. I have been a traditional archer(longbow and wood arrows) since the nineteen sixties. I make all my own arrows, leather quivers & Flemish Twist Strings. I was a pro photographer back in the 80's and 90's. And later became a custom Knife maker. And a woodworker of sorts. Plus I love to backpack and Canoe. All of these DIY hobbies requires lots of custom tools & tables. Space & organization is the key for all of my hobbies to exist in harmony. My house is certainly not luxurious or that beautiful. But Beauty& organization still rains paramount if I am to succeed and be able to do all of my hobbies. I try and make things as pleasant looking as possible. If I don't organize, well I tend to get a bit slobbish quickly...ha ha. Below is An example is my String changing station I made out of a wood arrowhead bowrack I use to make. The Tele bowl was a gift from a good friend.

A Few more questions That will help me determine what is the best method for myself and my room:

* For the Frameless OC703 (just wrapped in material)
+ How resilient is the Fiberglass in this format?
By this I mean, is it like a pillow? If you lean on it, will it come back to shape, or is it sensitive to pressure and will loose its shape if pressed on? (Not that I intend to lean on it in any way. But moving it back and forth and storing it are considerations)
I have an interesting idea for making the frameless OC703 free standing. I will reveal later after they are built...if I go that method.

** Great looking room Keith.Rogers. Love all the colors, very attractive. Having a nice room to work in can make a difference for creativity and longivity. I use the same music stand as you do, with the rigid plastic top. Did not want to bang my guitar into a metal frame.
+ In your free standing frame, what did you First cover that with? Looks like you maybe covered it first with something else before the final cloth covering?

*** If I do go Frameless, The Area that I am most concerned about is Making the fold-overs at the corners look appealing. Hot melt usually creates a slight bump.
+I have used Locktite spray glues on many things. Will the Locktite hold for the material at the fold over corners?
++ Are there any other suggestions for nice looking corners? Not much experience on a sewing machine, and seems like this would take lots of time to make a cover, but I should at least consider it.

Again, I am so happy to get all this kind help. Recording an album is my final life goal.

As a final note, and for a good laugh, Here is a picture of my first home recording studio back in the 1970's. Well, a set up picture of course, with auto photography. Set the timer and run to get into the picture in time...ha ha. I should still be using this space as it is a converted garage and Double wall thick(but my Living room is more convenient right now). At one time I had it lined with....yeah..you guessed it...egg cartons! One of the Keyboards was a Chamberlain. If you are familiar with the Melotron, Chamberlain was the inventor of the Melotron. Same exact principal. Loved adding symphony overdubs.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

+ How resilient is the Fiberglass in this format?
By this I mean, is it like a pillow? If you lean on it, will it come back to shape, or is it sensitive to pressure and will loose its shape if pressed on?

OC703 is not pillowy at all. If you compress it farther, it will not spring back. Quite a few of the batts I got had some rounded-off corners due to shipping. I didn't experiment but I imagine if abused the panels could also bend and get a crease that would then affect rigidity. It would take a little work to bend 4" thick OC703, but it could happen. If you care about movable panels looking sharp, I'd put them in a frame.

The Rockwool is a different animal, with somewhat less rigidity. The less-dense Safe'n'Sound can't really be used without a frame; it's a bit floppy. I'm not sure about the Rockwool 40 or 60--that might be denser and have more structure.

In Keith's picture, the lumpy greyish stuff behind the wires is the Rockwool. It looks like he only covered it with one thin layer of cloth (but correct me if I'm wrong, Keith).

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

Actually I was talking about this second picture he posted. Looks like the Material, just comes up to the frame, and not over it. I see no staples and the fabric is reasonably taught. Almost looks like paper.

In his studio picture, It looks like this frame is up on a bookcase with a lovely tree design fabric just hanging over it?

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Actually I was talking about this second picture he posted. Looks like the Material, just comes up to the frame, and not over it. I see no staples and the fabric is reasonably taught. Almost looks like paper.

Those knots in the frame look like they have something very translucent over them, like a thin muslin. I could be wrong, though. We'll have to wait for Keith to give us more detail on the construction.