The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:41 PM
Perchman Perchman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 371
Default

I was very impressed recently with how Sturgill Simpson rearranged some other artists’ popular songs. I’ve used his approach as guide for a few songs that I now perform that has gotten very good feedback from listeners. But this is purely the arrangement, not lyrics.
__________________
Guild D55
Gibson Southern Jumbo
Farida OT-22
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:57 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
So you're suggesting that they're definitely called "waist purses" over on that side of the pond?
Here in West Hollywood I'm pretty sure they're called "fudge packs."
__________________
Originals

Couch Standards
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:05 PM
dspoel dspoel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 221
Default

Rip off an existing song? Never! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlDewpCfZQ
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-11-2019, 12:17 AM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 5,744
Default

I feel pretty ambivalent about this. Perhaps because I'm a writer for a living (not songs), I tend to really respect the way a song was written. I get it, sometimes I really do think a line could have been done better. One of my "pet peeve" examples is Jackson Browne's "You Love The Thunder," a beautiful, haunting romantic ballad. One of the lines says "I've got your number," which to me is like a cold shower on all the melodic and poetic beauty of the song that comes before. It's almost as if Browne needed a rhyme, and he needed it fast, like, in the next 20 seconds, for whatever reason.

But hey, that's how he wrote it, and that's how he performs the song. It's his song, so he gets to decide how it goes, at least in my mind.

Wouldn't it be strange - and probably not widely acceptable - if we were at a poetry reading, and the person who selected and recited the poems would change the poems as they please? I think that would be quite a strange thing to do, and from an audience perspective, I'd have no interest whatsoever in attending the event.

I'm currently learning a Townes Van Zandt tune, "Tecumseh Valley," which has a line that goes "So she turned to whorin' out on the streets/with all the lust inside her." I'm torn between doing the song with that line (not because I'm prudish or anything), but rather because Townes himself sometimes changed the lyrics to "So she turned to walkin' out on the streets/with all the grief inside her" and I find that much more fitting. The song's main character, from what I gather, is portrayed as a very honorable and strong woman who stands by her principles and is willing to give the ultimate sacrifice -- her life -- to help her dad. So somehow, I find the version with her turning to prostitution out of grief much more compelling than out of lust.

Either version comes from the original artist, though, so I feel more entitled to pick the one I prefer than I would to simply rewriting the lyrics to something completely different.
__________________
"I've always thought of bluegrass players as the Marines of the music world" – (A rock guitar guy I once jammed with)

Martin America 1
Martin 000-15sm
Recording King Dirty 30s RPS-9 TS
Taylor GS Mini
Baton Rouge 12-string guitar
Martin L1XR Little Martin
1933 Epiphone Olympic
1971 square neck Dobro
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-11-2019, 12:35 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertTwang View Post
Either version comes from the original artist, though, so I feel more entitled to pick the one I prefer than I would to simply rewriting the lyrics to something completely different.
The after-further-review version's a lot better, no matter who came up with it.
__________________
Originals

Couch Standards
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-11-2019, 01:01 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Isle of Albion
Posts: 22,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
So you're suggesting that they're definitely called "waist purses" over on that side of the pond?
Nah, bum bags.
__________________
Silly Moustache,
Just an old Limey acoustic guitarist, Dobrolist, mandolier and singer.
I'm here to try to help and advise and I offer one to one lessons/meetings/mentoring via Zoom!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:33 PM
dwasifar dwasifar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,473
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly View Post
I'm throwing this question out for discussion.

Is it okay to rewrite other's songs or blasphemy?

I'm into early jazz band songs, show tunes, blues and folk songs. My research shows many variations in words and music.
You know, I came to this part of the forum to ask this very question.

My friend Urban Djin has been a professional western swing musician for most of his adult life, and we wound up talking about this one day. It came out of a discussion about the song "The King is Gone." George Jones' original recording has this line: "Soaked the label off a Flintstones jelly bean jar." Urban sings it as: "Soaked the label off a Flintstones jelly jar."

I asked him about it. I know "jelly jar" is factually correct. There was Flintstones jelly when I was a kid, but never Flintstones jelly beans. But the song has it as "jelly bean."
Urban said to me, "Never be afraid to change a song." He explained he remembered the jelly too, and the line's meter actually works better without the extra word. So he changed it and never looked back.

I thought about that for a while and realized it was savvy advice. After all, when you listen to a cover version of a song, part of what makes it worthwhile is how it differs from the version you know. The instrumentation doesn't have to be the same; the phrasing and tempo and everything else can be different. Why should the words be sacred?

In general, I don't understand when people want to slavishly copy the performance on someone else's record. You are never going to sound as much like the record as the record does. Between that realization and my friend's advice, I don't try to sound like the record; I work up a version of the song that sounds good coming from me, and if that means occasionally changing the words as well as the notes, then I give myself permission to do that. For example, in Nick Lowe's "All Men Are Liars," I change "among God's creatures" to "among all creatures" to remove the religious reference from the song, because I'm personally not comfortable including them and thus I'm not convincing singing them. (This is why I don't sing "Mrs. Robinson" much. I like to play it, but it refers to God and Jesus more than some hymns do. But I digress.)

Sometimes changing the words is necessary to avoid things getting weird. For example: the song "Someday Soon." In the popular Suzy Bogguss version, it's from the point of view of a young woman in love with a rodeo rider. If I sang it as she recorded it, I would be an old man in love with a rodeo rider, which is not at all the story the song wishes to tell. So I sing it from the point of view of the rodeo rider. "Her parents cannot stand me, 'cause I ride the rodeo. Her father says that I will leave her crying. But she would follow me right down the roughest road I know. Someday soon, she's goin' with me, someday soon."

The song "The Other End of the Telescope" was a funny case for me. Elvis Costello and Aimee Mann wrote it together. They both recorded versions, each with different lyrics. When I sing it, I sing some of his and some of hers, and it works.

So. TL;DR version: I think it's fine. In fact, I think it's more than fine.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:45 PM
dwasifar dwasifar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,473
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertTwang View Post
I feel pretty ambivalent about this. Perhaps because I'm a writer for a living (not songs), I tend to really respect the way a song was written. I get it, sometimes I really do think a line could have been done better. One of my "pet peeve" examples is Jackson Browne's "You Love The Thunder," a beautiful, haunting romantic ballad. One of the lines says "I've got your number," which to me is like a cold shower on all the melodic and poetic beauty of the song that comes before. It's almost as if Browne needed a rhyme, and he needed it fast, like, in the next 20 seconds, for whatever reason.
Maybe he meant it in a double sense of both "I have your phone number" and "I've got you figured out, I know your secrets." Or maybe he didn't, but you can pretend he did to make the song more comfortable for you.

Speaking of Browne makes me think of Warren Zevon.

In "Mohammed's Radio," Zevon sings "Work all day, still can't pay the price of gasoline, and meat." I saw Susan Cowsill (whose connection with that song goes back further than you might think) perform it, and she sang "wheat" instead of "meat." That was jarring. I get that she's probably a vegetarian and doesn't want to promote meat, but who goes to the store with "wheat" on their shopping list? I'd have changed it to "Work all day, still can't pay the price of gasoline, or eat." Makes their situation all the more dire, and it's a better rhyme than "meat" with "meet" as in the original. (Come on, Warren, really?)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:05 AM
Pitar Pitar is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,129
Default

I have no problem with it. Creativity pretty much moves the musician to make changes. Every cover song I do respectfully tends towards the original with very slight variations but my desire is to bash them resoundingly into how I want to hear them; especially the vocals. Many original artists have limited vocal ranges which leaves their work largely unexplored, inflectively and passionately speaking, and ultimately wanting.

This brings us to the opinion that not every artist we embrace completely fulfills the listener's ear with their music, and furthering their published works may not necessarily err in over-working them but rather bringing attractive embellishment as the ear hears it. Tina Turner's multitudinous rendering and re-rendering of Proud Mary has become her trademark. The Byrds fame was clearly on the coattails of other writers but their renderings were the key to their success.

I have re-rendered songs that differed entirely in melody. This was done through collaborations only. It becomes engaging when endorsed by others to explore their work with your own creativity.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-12-2019, 07:29 AM
dwasifar dwasifar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,473
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitar View Post
Many original artists have limited vocal ranges which leaves their work largely unexplored, inflectively and passionately speaking, and ultimately wanting.
I don't know who you meant, but my mind went immediately to Neil Young and John Hiatt. Songwriters of towering stature, but as vocalists, not so much. Elvis Costello would be in that category too, I suppose. Hiatt and Costello work to make their limitations into assets; Costello in particular uses the strain when he hits the top of his range to convey anguish and frustration. And Young just disregards his limits and hammers his way through the songs, relying on their quality to carry them through. But yeah, I've heard people do things with those guys' songs that they could never have done themselves.

I'm also reminded of what Robert Christgau wrote about The Clash: "...Joe Strummer makes virtuoso use of his four-note range."
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-12-2019, 07:58 AM
rmoretti49 rmoretti49 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,117
Default

[QUOTE=dwasifar;6184552
Sometimes changing the words is necessary to avoid things getting weird. For example: the song "Someday Soon." In the popular Suzy Bogguss version, it's from the point of view of a young woman in love with a rodeo rider. If I sang it as she recorded it, I would be an old man in love with a rodeo rider, which is not at all the story the song wishes to tell. So I sing it from the point of view of the rodeo rider. "Her parents cannot stand me, 'cause I ride the rodeo. Her father says that I will leave her crying. But she would follow me right down the roughest road I know. Someday soon, she's goin' with me, someday soon."
[/QUOTE]

I sing this song altered, too, from the standpoint of a narrator ("There's a young man that she loves...."). I am curious to know how you handle this same first line of that song.

There are a few songs that I have altered to make them suitable to be sung by a male.

In general, I often enough alter songs to make them more personal, so they more closely express my feelings or sensibilities. But I haven't performed out in decades. If I were to do so, and the alteration is significant, I would say that the song I am singing is my adaptation.
__________________
RM
-----------------------------------------------------

Taylor 856, Taylor GC7, Martin 00-28, Breedlove Oregon Concertina, Breedlove Jeff Bridges Signature, Guild JF55-12, Guild D212, Larrivee OM3, Eastman E20 OM, Farida OT22w, Cordoba Fusion 12 Orchestra, Blueridge BR-361, Pono 0-15 mango, Journey OF-660, Tanglewood TWJP parlor (Nashville tuned), Paul Reed Smith SE Custom.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:20 AM
dwasifar dwasifar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,473
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmoretti49 View Post
I sing this song altered, too, from the standpoint of a narrator ("There's a young man that she loves...."). I am curious to know how you handle this same first line of that song.
There's a young girl that I know whose age is twenty-one
Comes from down in southern Colorado
I'm just out of the service, still lookin' for my fun
But someday soon, she's goin' with me, someday soon.

Her parents cannot stand me, 'cause I ride the rodeo
Her father says that I will leave her cryin'
But she would follow me right down the roughest road I know
Someday soon, she's goin' with me, someday soon.

And when I come to call, her pa ain't got a good word to say
Maybe 'cause he's just as wild, in his younger days.

So blow, you old blue Norther, blow me back her way
I'm drivin' in tonight from California
I love her and my rodeo, more than I can say
Someday soon, she's goin' with me, someday soon.

Now that I've seen your version of the line, I may change it to "that I love" instead of "that I know." (Assuming you don't mind the bit of plagiarism )

Currently there's a trend toward pointedly not making these changes, I suppose to prove how open-minded you are. But I'm not going to subordinate a pretty song like this (or any song, really) to that goal.

Last edited by dwasifar; 10-12-2019 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Decided to add the full revised lyrics
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:04 AM
Denny B Denny B is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,136
Default

Occasionally, I'll have reason to read a passage from a poem, novel or some other written article aloud to another person...

I may have an opinion I'll express about it, but I read the passage as it was written and expressed by the author...

Same with existing songs...if I like it well enough to learn it, I'll sing it as it was originally written...if I'm offended by a lyric in a song, or think I could have written it better, I'll find another song that suits my taste and standards, or write my own...

Each to their own...
__________________
"Music is much too important to be left to professionals."
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:09 AM
pvfederico pvfederico is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Mexico
Posts: 209
Default I remember when...

... composers and performers were different professions. In fact, many song writing teams were partnerships between poetic types steeped in literature (lyrics) and formally trained musical types (melodies).

Then Dylan, the Beetles and other great song writers came along, and everything changed. Everyone, with little formal education in music and no good ideas or talent for written expression, had to be a "singer-songwriter."

IN MY OPINION, the result is not only less emphasis on melodies today, but also lyrics that I just can't bring myself to sing without feeling utterly stupid.

Hell yes, modify the lyrics where you feel it's necessary. You should play for yourself, first and foremost -- not for others. However, if you do perform in public, I wouldn't advise changing lyrics -- just avoid the great majority of garbage that's out there today.

I've been visiting this site for years, and rarely contribute, because I'm so impressed with so many here who have much more knowledge and ability than I will ever have. However, I feel very strongly about the direction that music has taken under the new "singer/songwriters," and just had to comment on this thread.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:48 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvfederico View Post
However, if you do perform in public, I wouldn't advise changing lyrics -- just avoid the great majority of garbage that's out there today.
Okay. How do you feel about something that's part great, part garbage? Something you may see as a "gem with flaws," like I did earlier in the thread with "When Sunny Gets Blue" and "Desafinado?" Me, I feel like there's so much beauty there that it's a shame not to perform them, but it's also incumbent on me -- or someone -- to patch the potholes so the journey is smooth.

And what about classic folks songs like "Streets of Laredo" and "Long Black Veil?" Almost nobody performs all the verses of those, they'd go on for days. But isn't tossing out entire verses even more editorially heavy-handed?
__________________
Originals

Couch Standards

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 10-12-2019 at 11:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=