Waverly tuners so tight ;-(

Kenny B · #1 01-24-2023, 03:56 PM

So I just installed new Waverly tuners on a Collings guitar to replace the Waverly tuners that were so hard to turn, especially the D and G string tuners. Well thinking the tuners might be bad, I installed new tuners without replacing the inside bushing, and although the new tuners are better, they are still tight compared to what I'm use to with Waverly on a Collings.

note: when I removed the original tuners, they moved freely without issue so the problem is not with the tuners themselves.

Is this something that Collings should address? Would like to hear if there is an easy fix of some type. I understand the removing the bushings may be not something that easy to do.

warfrat73 · #2 01-24-2023, 06:19 PM

This is (well, may be, at least) something that's popped up number of times with Waverly, not sure if you've seen some of those discussions before, here's one: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=608513

Kenny B · #3 01-25-2023, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warfrat73

This is (well, may be, at least) something that's popped up number of times with Waverly, not sure if you've seen some of those discussions before, here's one: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=608513

Yes I read that discussion before posting here and thought to reach out for any new information. I don't like the ideal of drilling the tuner hole larger and moving the bushing "south" to free up space for the spindle to turn freely. Plus the idea of filling screw holes to attach the tuner in the back plate. Not something I do very willingly.

Bruce Sexauer · #4 01-25-2023, 11:18 AM

You would be moving the bushing (ferrule) north rather than south as the goal is to keep the driven gear from being mashed into the worm gear by the string tension. But that’s the hard way. Instead, move the tuner itself .25 mm +/- south.

Some installation methods use two hole sizes in the headstock, one for the ferrule, and another for the tuner shaft. It is often necessary to increase the size of the 1/4” hole for the tuner shaft or it will not allow the tuner to shift south. 5/16 is more than enough to do the job. The screw hole need to be filled and re-drilled about 1/2 their diameter south as well. Cocktail toothpicks with about half of their pointy end clipped off and a bit of Titebond work well for that. Some other manufacturers of Butterbean tuners use tighter tolerances and avoid the problem altogether.

John Arnold · #5 01-25-2023, 04:15 PM

Waverly uses extremely tight tolerances between the worm and the crown gear. The problem arises as a result of the way the shaft is installed in the baseplate. There is a wave washer under the gear which preloads the rotational resistance of the shaft. This eliminates a common problem with many open gear tuners, where the shaft preload is determined by the tightness of the screw retaining the gear. That can cause issues with loose screws and play between the gear and the shaft.
The problem with the wave washer is that it can allow the shaft to lean slightly, which can increase friction between the worm and the gear teeth.
This is exacerbated under string tension, since the direction of string pull tends to cause the shaft to lean slightly.
Bruce outlined the resolution, shifting the tuner down so that the shaft cannot lean past perpendicular when tension is applied.
I am a fan of step-drilling tuner holes, but it can cause this Waverly issue if the holes are not perfectly concentric. I solve that by drilling the 11/32" bushing holes first, then install the bushings. I then drill the 1/4" shaft holes, using the bushings as drill guides. I always drill tuner shaft holes in a drill press to ensure they are perfectly perpendicular to the peghead. Obviously, holes that are not perpendicular can cause all but the sloppiest of tuners to malfunction.

jmat · #6 01-27-2023, 04:59 PM

The experts have spoken so I cant help there. I will say it is a pity this issue still exists and I appreciate your situation. I have given up on waverlys for this reason, one of them is always glitchy. Schaller should offer a version of grand tune made for waverly drop in. Aftermarket gold mine.

John Arnold · #7 01-27-2023, 09:49 PM

I prefer Gotoh SE700. Same general appearance as Waverly, but none of the drama with clashing gears or unscrewing and falling apart. Less than half the price, to boot.

Bruce Sexauer · #8 01-28-2023, 11:14 AM

Sadly, the Gotoh Butterbean is not thought of as “cool”, apparently. It seems to be the smoothest and most reliable of the group. Unfortunately, it is not quite a drop-in replacement for a Waverly as the screw holes are slightly closer together and the footprint of its predecessor shows a bit. Years ago I have used a few sets on my work and they stand the test of time well. They make an aged patina version in both silver and gold. The gold version is less garish than shiny gold can be on some guitars, and looks great to me.

Fathand · #9 01-28-2023, 11:44 PM

These Wilkinson butterbeans may be even less "cool" than Gotohs as they are made in China and a very reasonable price at $29.99 US, 19:1 ratio, I have installed 4 sets and find them very smooth. I've bought 2 more sets for future projects. I understand they are supposed to be a drop in replacement for Grover but can't vouch for that.

https://www.guitarpartsfactory.us/WJ...itar-Wilkinson

Bruce Sexauer · #10 01-29-2023, 11:59 AM

I have to wonder how Wilkinson expects a tech to put 9” holes in the headstock.

Moot point though, since the Grover tuner isn’t up to the level of others being discussed here, and it is hard to imagine the knock-off being superior. IMO, of course.

Fathand · #11 01-29-2023, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

I have to wonder how Wilkinson expects a tech to put 9” holes in the headstock.

Moot point though, since the Grover tuner isn’t up to the level of others being discussed here, and it is hard to imagine the knock-off being superior. IMO, of course.

I believe that 9 " is a typo by Guitar Factory and probably should read 9mm for the bushing. Of course Gotoh is a knock of as well and some feel they are superior .

Bruce Sexauer · #12 01-31-2023, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fathand

I believe that 9 " is a typo by Guitar Factory and probably should read 9mm for the bushing. Of course Gotoh is a knock of as well and some feel they are superior .

You must be talking about a different Gotoh than I am. While the Gotoh does have a Butterbean grip, it is entirely its own engineering, and more inspired by Waverly, if anything, than by Grover in any era I am aware of. And yes, 9” was surely a typo!