Another go - recording effort

[broy]

The weather finally cooperated and had to stay inside for a couple days... which led to finally trying out my recording skills.

I'm sitting, strumming guitar and singing. Singing into a Shure SM58 and guitar is plugged directly to the Presonus audiobox interface (through a K&K pickup)

For room treatment, I've got 4 acoustic panels. 2 in front of me (about 5-6 ft) and 2 in back (about 2 ft in back of me).

Below is a pass at one song with and without FX. I'm trying to do EQ, compression and reverb... following guidelines I found on you tube, but really - can't tell if what i'm doing is in the ballpark of where I should be going.

I played the below clip through headphones, then a couple computers. My wife said the vocal level was good, I thought they are soft.

Any advice on how best to start this journy and figure out what I need to improve my recording.

With FX:
Without FX:

[KevWind]

OK a lot to unpack here , For starters I would suggest you list what DAW and version you are using, and what Computer and OS version .

First it sounds like you have an ok start. Especially with the acoustic panels
And I like that you have a bit of a Tom Waits-esq growl to your voice very cool

So with your tracks the first thing I noticed was , while the vocal level is fine in much of the song, there are few places where it drops below the level of the guitar and becomes less intelligible .. So IMO the first thing to do bring the level back up in only those specific places (so not with a compressor) Which depending on your specific DAW is usually done using some type of level or volume "Automation"

I have more thoughts but they require some detail and I don't have time right now to go into them I will come back to thread later today or tomorrow

[broy]

Thanks Kev. very much appreciate you taking the time to listen and comment.
(1) I've updated my signature to list equipment, let me know if I should add anything.
(2) Before you invest anymore time, let me give it another go first. I'll try to level out the singing vs guitar, but also going to try mixing more in line w/ your 'Turn the Page' video on show and tell (I just rewatched it and have a few things I want to try).

Rgds - Bill

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by broy

Thanks Kev. very much appreciate you taking the time to listen and comment.
(1) I've updated my signature to list equipment, let me know if I should add anything.
(2) Before you invest anymore time, let me give it another go first. I'll try to level out the singing vs guitar, but also going to try mixing more in line w/ your 'Turn the Page' video on show and tell (I just rewatched it and have a few things I want to try).

Rgds - Bill

OK so if you are not aware of clip gain in Studio One (I assume it is the same for Artist).

The entire is worthwhile BUT He does the specific move at about 2:25

[KevWind]

Also be aware you can even with a mono guitar track, do several things to get physical separation in the stereo field (left to right )

One is duplicate the guitar track and slip one slightly in time or put a delay on one and then pan the two opposite (left and right ) this will open the center for just the vocal
Another thing is if you have any kind of stereo for mono plugin you can just do that on the original guitar track

[Rudy4]

My past experience with using a copy/paste of the same track (or same performance using two separate mics) is it is easy to run into severe phasing and/or cancellation when using them.

YMMV, but not anything I want to use.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

My past experience with using a copy/paste of the same track (or same performance using two separate mics) is it is easy to run into severe phasing and/or cancellation when using them.

YMMV, but not anything I want to use.

In my experience as with most things audio, it's all relative and matter of degree.
And "it is easy" is pretty highly subjective. I would think "It is possible" to run into phasing issues is the more objective statement

And it is my experience that, while there is no doubt that copy/pate/slip a mono track will introduce phasing how severe it will be is correlated to specifically where in the timeline or how much offset is used
There is actually 180 degrees of variation between no phase difference and
and null cancellation ...

I am confused though about your "using two separate
mics" statement given I remember thinking this was one of your best sounding video's

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by KevWind

In my experience as with most things audio, it's all relative and matter of degree.
And "it is easy" is pretty highly subjective. I would think "It is possible" to run into phasing issues is the more objective statement

And it is my experience that, while there is no doubt that copy/pate/slip a mono track will introduce phasing how severe it will be is correlated to specifically where in the timeline or how much offset is used
There is actually 180 degrees of variation between no phase difference and
and null cancellation ...

I am confused though about your "using two separate
mics" statement given I remember thinking this was one of your best sounding video's

Hi Kev,
In that video I'm purposefully going with two mics to record "solo" guitar in stereo, mostly to demonstrate what $30 mics can sound like. There can still be phasing issues, but it's easier to deal with when you aren't adding multiple mics into a multi-track recording. In that case switching to mono will usually reveal if there's an extreme problem with phase cancellation. (In the old days I would sometimes scootch my monitors together and place them so the cones were facing each other a few inches apart!)

Adding identical guitar parts into a multi-track recording can, in my experience, have an increased possibility of phasing issues. Of course, there are ways to check phase problems and correct in your DAW.

One of the most common ways to thicken up a guitar part, recording the guitarist playing along to a previous track and playing as identically as possible, is a good example of demonstrating how to deal with the phasing issue. In most cases phasing isn't a problem because the recorded second pass never coincides precisely with the initial recording.

Hope that explains my thinking a bit better.

All this stuff is super-fun to experiment with, and there's no better way to understand the underlying principals than to simply do it and see first-hand.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Hi Kev,
In that video I'm purposefully going with two mics to record "solo" guitar in stereo, mostly to demonstrate what $30 mics can sound like. There can still be phasing issues, but it's easier to deal with when you aren't adding multiple mics into a multi-track recording. In that case switching to mono will usually reveal if there's an extreme problem with phase cancellation. (In the old days I would sometimes scootch my monitors together and place them so the cones were facing each other a few inches apart!)

Adding identical guitar parts into a multi-track recording can, in my experience, have an increased possibility of phasing issues. Of course, there are ways to check phase problems and correct in your DAW.

One of the most common ways to thicken up a guitar part, recording the guitarist playing along to a previous track and playing as identically as possible, is a good example of demonstrating how to deal with the phasing issue. In most cases phasing isn't a problem because the recorded second pass never coincides precisely with the initial recording.

Hope that explains my thinking a bit better.

All this stuff is super-fun to experiment with, and there's no better way to understand the underlying principals than to simply do it and see first-hand.

Yes multiple mic will always introduce time domain phase ( again wether that is a benefit or issue to the sound is relative to degree and subjective )
Also remember that right now the OP is plugging his guitar direct in from his pickup, and singing into a SM58 which is the specific situation I was replying to
So at least he will not be doubling any room reflection and phase issues like doubling a single mic input might ..
So that is my thinking and I agree experimentation will begin to reveal much

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Yes multiple mic will always introduce time domain phase ( again wether that is a benefit or issue to the sound is relative to degree and subjective )
Also remember that right now the OP is plugging his guitar direct in from his pickup, and singing into a SM58 which is the specific situation I was replying to
So at least he will not be doubling any room reflection and phase issues like doubling a single mic input might ..
So that is my thinking and I agree experimentation will begin to reveal much

Ah yes, I had forgotten that.

It has recently been posted about the time alignment issues when you use a microphone and direct input from a guitar pickup, too. There can be up to several milliseconds delay introduced between the two simply due to the physical distance sound has to travel to the microphone.

[broy]

Thank you both, what an education!

Through your conversation, and listening to my track a bazillion times, I feel I'm not happy with the original, and going to re-record trying to get a stereo mix for the guitar at the same time. Trying to keep my eye on the prize, my goal will be able to get a set up to record guitar and singing in one pass, first using what I have for equipment, then eventually adding mics etc..

Regardless, using the original track, I'm still trying to see what I can do from a mixing perspective. What I did since the first pass - (1) Tried to increase volume on singing where it was low (2) Re did FX more in line w/ Kevin's video on 'Turn the Page' in Show and Tell (main thing was including compression and reverb on send. (3) copied guitar track, nudged one forward a bit, and pan'd them to either side.

It's a stretch to say it's good, but I didn't cringe (as much) when I listened to it at least. Any suggestions on next thing I should be focusing on from a recording / mixing perspective?

NEW MIX W/ FX:


ORIGINAL RECORDING, NO FX (same as posted above):

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Ah yes, I had forgotten that.

It has recently been posted about the time alignment issues when you use a microphone and direct input from a guitar pickup, too. There can be up to several milliseconds delay introduced between the two simply due to the physical distance sound has to travel to the microphone.

For sure when recording a guitar , where the pickup signal arrives at the speed of light, and the mic signal at the speed of sound. But of course that is a situation with the same single source the guitar . And again not what the OP is dealing with he is the pickup on guitar and mic on vocal so time alignment is not likely to be much an issue and neither is bleed