"Neo-Tropical Mahogany" In Taylor 517/517e models?

[gitarro]

It's likely to be neither tropical nor mahogany LOL

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

You are dead wrong about sapele, khaya, and sipo not being at all related to "genuine" mahogany. All four are in the same family: Meliaceae (which is known as the mahogany family).

Swietenia is not a Family. It is a genus.

I don't know where the name "Meliaceae Cedreloideae" comes from in relation to Khaya. Khaya is in the genus Khaya and there are five species of Khaya.
They are:
Khaya anthotheca
Khaya grandifolia
Khaya ivorensis
Khaya madagascariensis
Khaya senegalensis

The botanical classification hierarchy is Order > Family > Genus > Species.

Genera and species in the same family are related. By definition.



According to the Wood Database, three Swietenia species are universally accepted as "genuine" mahogany:

Swietenia macrophylla (Honduran mahogany)
Swietenia humilis (Mexican mahogany)
Swietenia mahogani (Cuban mahogany)

To be fair, it is a very loose connection to be in the same taxonomic family. For example true rosewood that is the dalbergia's are in the Fabaceae family which is a vast family of flowering plants. Chickpeas for example are also in the same family and so are related to rosewood in that sense also!

Personally I think that the guitar companies calling khaya or sapele "mahogany" is disingenuous and confusing. Obviously they are doing it for marketing purposes to cause buyers to feel better about the different woods they are using but "mahogany" should only be used for true mahoganies and likewise for rosewood

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

I don't know where the name "Meliaceae Cedreloideae" comes from in relation to Khaya. Khaya is in the genus Khaya and there are five species of Khaya.
They are:
Khaya anthotheca
Khaya grandifolia
Khaya ivorensis
Khaya madagascariensis
Khaya senegalensis

The botanical classification hierarchy is Order > Family > Genus > Species.

You're right. I went up too high on the ladder for Khaya and gave the Family and subfamily instead of Genus and Species.

Still not Swietenia.

[gmel555]

Yes from a scientific classification standpoint they are absolutely in the same “Family”, but it’s a large family including shrubs you’d never make a guitar out of. Once you get farther removed than same genus there can be huge differences. I’d judge each wood on its own merits. Personally, I’d prefer luthiers not throw other adjectives in front of the word “Mahogany” for any wood that’s not in the Swietenia genus, but that’s marketing.

[Rev Roy]

This diagram circulates regularly on AGF. It has Khaya listed as “generally accepted” and Sipo and Sapele listed as “mixed acceptance” as mahogany.

[Paddy1951]

Originally Posted by Rev Roy

This diagram circulates regularly on AGF. It has Khaya listed as “generally accepted” and Sipo and Sapele listed as “mixed acceptance” as mahogany.

One of my guitars is made of Honduran mahogany. One is made of sapele. Both were indicated as such. I don't understand why sapele isn't accepted on its own merits. It is not inferior to Honduran mahogany. Nor superior. It shares some traits with mahogany. It is just different.

Is rosewood superior to mahogany? Not from where I stand. They too, are just different woods.

[Jim]

Trying to say that everything in a Family are closely related is silly. Family is far too high of a grouping - for example, in Meliaceae there are around 575 different species of trees and shrubs. Trying to call them all mahogany is deliberately misleading at best. One needs to get down to a Genus to make any sense and then down to Species within a Genus. For what is historically called mahogany that means Genus Swietenia and within that Genus there are only three species - all of which only grow naturally in the western hemisphere. These three are Swietenia mahogoni which is the tree where mahogany gets it name; Swietenia humilis; and Swietenia macrophylla. Swietenia macrophylla (literally big leaf mahogany) is what many marketing companies call Honduran mahogany but it grows in other countries than Honduras. It is the only one of the three species that is commercially available though there is still a bit of Swietenia humilis still available now and then. Swietenia mahogany is pretty much only found as specimen trees in people's front yards or on protected lands. And, yes, mahogany is CITES listed and controlled now. By comparison, real rosewoods are all in the Dalbergia Genus. One does not go by its Family - Fabaceae - to say something is rosewood otherwise one would need to be able to make a guitar out of Lima beans and be able to say it is closely related to rosewood so it should be called a rosewood guitar.

Many guitar companies and most wood sellers try to confuse and trick the public into thinking they are getting something that they are not in order to make sales and increase their profits. There is absolutely nothing wrong about using non-mahogany or non-rosewood or whatever woods in making a guitar so long as they are sold as what they are. Khaya is a fine and inexpensive tonewood with wide availability, so is Sapele, so is Ovangkol, etcl etc. Sadly there are no laws about giving something a clever name to get people to believe it is not what it actually is and that is why you really do need to find out from the maker what the botanical name is for a wood that they are using and it must be the Genus and Species - both names - otherwise you could be getting anything. For example, there would be no law against selling something like red oak by a marketing name such as Adirondack Rosewood. Once you found out the Genus and Species of Adirondack Rosewood is Quercus rubra you would then know it by its more common name of red oak.

[Shuksan]

For those saying that the Family level is of little value because of species diversity at the Family level, nonsense. We are not talking about comparing trees and shrubs or trees and chickpeas here. We are talking about comparing trees with trees, and they very similar trees at that.

AZLiberty stated that "Neither Sapele nor Khaya are really related to mahogany at all." and "They certainly are not related though." both of which are incorrect as a simple matter of fact. Trees in the same family are related, period. That was my point.

More importantly for guitars, the woods from these trees are so similar that they are equally good materials for guitar building. Largely because of tradition though, they are not equally good for marketing purposes. Most people presented with a pile containing random pieces of Honduran mahogany and Khaya and given the task of separating them by species would be unsuccessful. I bet many luthiers would be too. The woods can be that similar.

[John K]

Many D-18s from the 70s had Khaya instead of Honduran hog. Nobody noticed...

[bufflehead]

I'm wondering whether they're just substituting "neo-tropical" for "Honduran." The natural range of Honduran mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla, is all neo-tropical.

[merlin666]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

You are dead wrong about sapele, khaya, and sipo not being at all related to "genuine" mahogany. All four are in the same family: Meliaceae (which is known as the mahogany family).

Swietenia is not a Family. It is a genus.

I don't know where the name "Meliaceae Cedreloideae" comes from in relation to Khaya. Khaya is in the genus Khaya and there are five species of Khaya.
They are:
Khaya anthotheca
Khaya grandifolia
Khaya ivorensis
Khaya madagascariensis
Khaya senegalensis

The botanical classification hierarchy is Order > Family > Genus > Species.

Genera and species in the same family are related. By definition.



According to the Wood Database, three Swietenia species are universally accepted as "genuine" mahogany:

Swietenia macrophylla (Honduran mahogany)
Swietenia humilis (Mexican mahogany)
Swietenia mahogani (Cuban mahogany)

Well just because they are all in the family of Meliacea does not mean they should be called "Mahogany" at all, they should be called Meliaceas then. Everything else is just nasty marketing spoo with a purpose to confuse the ignorant masses. It's already bad enough that the term Mahogany was extended from small-leaf ("cuban") to big-leaf ("honduran"). But it shouldn't matter where the plant was grown, there are many plantations in SE Asia with plenty of Swietenia macrophylla, and this should be preferred to the African distant cousins. And yeah Khaya guitars look pretty and sound fine, just please don't call them Hog it's good enough to be called by its own name.

[Shuksan]

Originally Posted by merlin666

Well just because they are all in the family of Meliacea does not mean they should be called "Mahogany" at all

I agree they shouldn't be called mahogany.

Originally Posted by merlin666

And yeah Khaya guitars look pretty and sound fine, just please don't call them Hog it's good enough to be called by its own name.

Yes, and please don't call them Hog. It's mahogany.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by bufflehead

I'm wondering whether they're just substituting "neo-tropical" for "Honduran." The natural range of Honduran mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla, is all neo-tropical.

Referencing both of Taylor's mahogany descriptions from my OP would seem to indicate that Taylor is, indeed, using Genuine Mahogany from its natural range. The only way to find out for sure is for me to email Taylor and ask them. My confusion was a result of seeing the term "neo-tropical" for their mahogany as I've not heard or seen that term before. Thanks, Everyone for posting your thoughts on this matter!

[Jim]

If you email or call Taylor, ask them what the Genus and species are for their "neo-tropical mahogany" It should be Swietenia macrophylla and not some other name. Botanical names are important to use if you want to know what the wood really is - common names are almost useless with the trick common names being foisted on so many people these days. And I do not agree that Family is sufficient to say trees are directly related. Yes they are related at that level, but as I said above so are Lima beans and Brazilian rosewood that are in the exact same Family - Fabaceae. Or you can go above Family to something like Kingdom and say that every tree in the world is related to every other tree but that is even more useless. Also, being able to tell a board of Swietenia macrophylla from a board of Khaya grandifoliola or one of the other 4 species of Khaya, yes I can tell them apart. I think that Khaya is a wonderful tone wood for acoustic guitars, as well as Sapele and the other substitute tone woods that many manufacturers are going to as real mahogany is getting hard to find in good quality. These good performing alternative tone woods make acoustic guitars more affordable and since they are all plentiful they will be able to be used for a great many years to come. There is nothing to be ashamed of if a guitar is made with ones of these woods - to the contrary one should be proud of the structural strength and unique tones they give.

[otis66]

Neo means New or revived so I guess Neo Mahogany means New Mahogany or revived mahogany.
I should have kept my 1996 Taylor 510 LTD. ☹️