Substitution options for rosewood?

[mahoriver]

Thanks "charles" interesting stuff.

If anyone is interested there was this recent thread here: (the thread title was a bit confusing as it didn't say All Rosewood http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=449001

New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species,Reverb article:
https://reverb.com/news/new-cites-re...sewood-species

[Alan Carruth]

I'm one of the people who has used Osage Orange and Black Locust for guitars, along with a number of others, with good results. There are suppliers who are starting to work with these woods, and we can expect that bottleneck to be reduced.

One of my favorite 'alternatives' is quartered oak. I've used it in a number of guitars, and people generally love the way they sound. The only problem is in getting somebody to actually buy one. It most emphatically does not look like rosewood, and to many people that seems to be an insuperable bar. We'd have a lot more luck selling alternatives if people would stop listening with their eyes.

[Nyghthawk]

Martin has the Sustainable Wood Series. Gibson has the J-15 and the new HP series. It is possible to move away from using limited resources but the buying public must be the driver. Hint, that's us.

[jljohn]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Agreed.

There are, however, two sides to the coin: supply and demand. Look at the number of people who own "stables" of guitars - 6, 8, a dozen, more. That's demand.

If people bought what they "needed" rather than what they "wanted", manufacturers would reduce the supply - the quantity they manufacture and the quantity of materials they use to do so. If manufacturers don't, they go out of business with inventory they cannot sell. If there is no - or reduced - demand, there will be reduced production, reduced consumption of materials, reduced energy consumption, etc. We live in a time of habits of conspicuous consumption. And, we want those consumables for the least possible cost to us. That isn't sustainable.

How many rosewood guitars do you - the general you - own? Are you part of the problem, or part of the solution?

I agree with this general sentiment, but I'm guessing that the market reality is that if people only bought what they "needed" (i.e. one good guitar unless he or she is a performer), and all those stables or collections were redistributed, there would be along-term surplus of guitars on the market, and all major manufacturers would go out of business! Demand would be very low for quite some time.

Not to de-rail this thread, but it's a shame that it's gotten this far. There are so many surplus guitars on the market, it's not even funny! I bought a D-18 in 2004, and it has a 97x,xxx serial number. I passed through a shop last week and saw an HD-28 with a 2,03x,xxx serial number. Martin has made more guitars in the last 12 years than in all of it's previous history, and they are not alone. Look at the numbers coming from Gibson and Taylor. And then don't forget Larrivee, Guild, and all the other mid-sized makers. Plus, there's the rise of the top end production guitars like Collings, Santa Cruz, Huss and Dalton, and Bourgeois.

How does it unwind? Does the market get so flooded that used guitars retain little value? Do these companies grow so large that they can't maintain themselves and collapse?

[gitarro]

Virtually the entire global consumer products industry is founded on creating demand for luxury goods that are not strictly necessary. It is the explosion of individual purchasers who have purchasing power and who have the demand for esoteric designs who have propelled the great increase in innovation In design and aesthetic experimentation. If all guitar buyers were to only limit their purchases to only needs, almost all solo luthiers, small shops and guitar companies would very quickly go out of business with only lower priced instruments wih basic appointments remaining.


In such a world the demand for more exotic woods would be eliminated but also eliminated would be the diversity and Excellence that we see in the world of lutherie.

[LoMa]

To get back to substitutes for EIR, perhaps Palo Escrito, a rosewood relative that's grown in Mexico. Many makers in Paracho use it in classical guitars and probably steel string too.

[Tico]

Originally Posted by riverrummed

It also wouldn't hurt to get the planet's population back down to around 3 billion

As childless old man I've done my part.
Not having kids is the greenest thing any person can do, though it boggles my mind to learn so many find this subject taboo.

My carbon footprint will stop walking when my toxic embalming fluid leaches into the groundwater.

Not having kids is even more green that what that bumper sticker suggest, "Save the Planet. Kill Yourself." ... that is unless you kill yourself before having kids.
My partner's grandmother has 78 descendants, and counting ... each of whom will have ... oh ... never mind.

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Agreed.

There are, however, two sides to the coin: supply and demand. Look at the number of people who own "stables" of guitars - 6, 8, a dozen, more. That's demand.

If people bought what they "needed" rather than what they "wanted", manufacturers would reduce the supply - the quantity they manufacture and the quantity of materials they use to do so. If manufacturers don't, they go out of business with inventory they cannot sell. If there is no - or reduced - demand, there will be reduced production, reduced consumption of materials, reduced energy consumption, etc. We live in a time of habits of conspicuous consumption. And, we want those consumables for the least possible cost to us. That isn't sustainable.

How many rosewood guitars do you - the general you - own? Are you part of the problem, or part of the solution?

it's been stated here many times that guitar manufacturing was never the cause of scarcity for any wood. it has been and continues to be the furniture makers.

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

I'm one of the people who has used Osage Orange and Black Locust for guitars, along with a number of others, with good results. There are suppliers who are starting to work with these woods, and we can expect that bottleneck to be reduced.

One of my favorite 'alternatives' is quartered oak. I've used it in a number of guitars, and people generally love the way they sound. The only problem is in getting somebody to actually buy one. It most emphatically does not look like rosewood, and to many people that seems to be an insuperable bar. We'd have a lot more luck selling alternatives if people would stop listening with their eyes.

What does oak sound like, mahogany? walnut?

[mahoriver]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

I'm one of the people who has used Osage Orange and Black Locust for guitars, along with a number of others, with good results. There are suppliers who are starting to work with these woods, and we can expect that bottleneck to be reduced.

One of my favorite 'alternatives' is quartered oak. I've used it in a number of guitars, and people generally love the way they sound. The only problem is in getting somebody to actually buy one. It most emphatically does not look like rosewood, and to many people that seems to be an insuperable bar. We'd have a lot more luck selling alternatives if people would stop listening with their eyes.

A Oak back and sides parlor guitar from the 20s.
I think its beautiful(not mine)



I know the sound of Rosewood & Mahogany.
Think at least some of the battle is getting to try/play these alternative woods.
To be confident about what im going to get..(and of course the look for some)
Ive seen a couple of Larrivee OM's,with Oak B&S never had the pleasure of playing one - YET !

[Tony Burns]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Not yet. Yamaha and other Asian guitar manufacturers have been using nato as a mahogany substitute for decades now, but rosewood is harder to replace.

In North America there's the tree commonly called "Osage orange" (also referred to as "hedgeapple" where I'm from on the Missouri-Kansas border, and as "bois de arc" or "bodark" in Texas.) Some respected builders who've used it claim that in terms of its tonal properties it's closer to Brazilian rosewood than any other wood, but nobody's harvesting it for guitar construction quite yet.

What I think is more likely is that you'll see more manufacturers substituting various species of maple and walnut for the parts they used to use rosewood for. Gibson is already doing that, and using the torrefaction process to make maple even harder than it already i so they can use it for fretboards.

So the short answer is: probably more use of maple and walnut, including Asian species that may or may not fall into the same families but are similar enough.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

Hi wade -
I know a tad about Osage orange -also called hedge apple -
Ive seen a few of the spiky balls from this tree - and in my neck of the woods
they dont typically grow very big -I bought some wood from a fellow down in Georgia many years ago ( quartered fiddle back set and 2 sides for a mandolin )
that ive got in storage - its a nice orange color when its first harvested and it turns a ugly yellowish brown to a dark brown --it can be stained black -but that i know of its the only north american wood that does not float ( very simalar to Ebony as i recall ) i dont believe its abundant enough to be used in guitar making - Thou i believe ive seen a couple of posts here with pictures with a guitar someone was making -a few years back.
most of it has been destroyed over the years as a useless wood by farmers etc. its actually pretty rare ( from what ive heard ) In my walks around my area i have yet to see one .( thou i know their are a few - or ive been told that )

[mercy]

To answer the question of what does oak sound like "Teak is a relatively heavy with a lot of internal damping" For myself I really like the look of flecked oak. Any wood can be used to make a guitar but different woods sound different. For example the all spruce guitar would be a guitar but the sound would be different than rosewood. In my opinion we should just let supply and demand take care of it. Meaning I would like a Brazilian guitar but Im not going to buy on cause of the price.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Tony Burns

Hi wade -
I know a tad about Osage orange -also called hedge apple -
I..... i know of its the only north american wood that does not float ( very simalar to Ebony as i recall ) i dont believe its abundant enough to be used in guitar making -


most of it has been destroyed over the years as a useless wood by farmers etc. its actually pretty rare ( from what ive heard ) In my walks around my area i have yet to see one .( thou i know their are a few - or ive been told that )

Yes, it's getting less common as agriculture as moved away from traditional hedgerows protecting the fields to planting every square inch of land that they can.

We had six hedgeapple trees in our backyard when I was a kid, but my father was culling them one by one over the years to serve as firewood. Hedgeapple (Osage orange) is a spectacular firewood, so resinous that it burns forever and produces marvelous light and spiking flares for hours as it does.

Anyway, I agree, it's not poised to take over the international tonewood market, that's for sure. Which is kind of too bad....


whm

[Alan Carruth]

Osage is actually very much more common now than it was when the Europeans hit these shores. Back then it only grew in one valley in Texas. It proved to be vary adaptable, however, growing well in poor, dry soils and producing a tough wood with really nasty thorns. It actually grows as far north as NYC, at least. It was widely planted as a hedge tree until the invention of barbed wire, and tended to be kept pruned low. It has been suggested that the fruit was adapted to be spread by elephants, and it started to die out when the mammoths did. It held on in that one valley as trees dropped fruits into the stream which could take root further down. Since a tree can last 500 years or so that's not too many generations.

One tone wood supplier I know has actually gotten wood from a large Osage tree that grew up from a hedge: the grain is interlocked inside, with several piths, indicating that the trunk was actually several stems that were twisted together. It can grow quite large: I've gotten quartered stock 8" wide or more. It does tend to suffer considerable drying degrade toward the heart of the tree where there's a lot of ring line curvature. Just like BRW...

As for what oak sounds like; it's just like oak. As a 'tweener' wood with it's own suite of characteristics, it has a sound between mahogany and rosewood, that's a bit different from the other tweener woods.

I'll inject one of my usual sermonettes. Wood offers possibilities and sets limits. A good luthier can more nearly approach the possibilities of a given piece of wood, and push the limits, but that only goes so far. You probably won't find a guitar made of average Honduras mahogany that sounds just like one made of average Brazilian rosewood, no matter who made it. On the other hand, there's mahogany that's more like rosewood than the average, and rosewood that's more like mahogany, and those woods will also be 'tweeners', although maybe not so close to the middle. All woods vary, so there's a lot of scope.

When I made a 'matched pair' of Classical guitars out of BRW and oak (about 20 years ago!) they came out sounding very similar. The oak back was heavier than the rosewood one, and that seems to have contributed to slightly lower power output. The somewhat higher damping of the oak may have contributed to a bit less high-end 'sparkle' in the tone. The differences were not huge.

Since I've learned a little something since then (such as avoiding dense, highly flamed curly oak, even when it looks cool!), maybe I could do even better. IMO, and that of several of the folks who've played them, it's hard to beat an oak 12-fret 000. I'm not sure I'd use it on a Dread, which needs more treble to balance out all of the bass.

[RossM]

Myrtlewood seems to be gaining popularity here in the Pacific North West. The guitars I've tried have been a little bright for my taste. Kind of like Maple. I've only played a couple so that may not be universally true.
I like the idea of luthiers using the finest woods from their immediate surroundings. Use what you've got.