Step up from Yamaha HS8 monitors?

[BoneDigger]

These are pretty decent monitors, but what would be the best set (upgrade) for a home studio? Let's say under $1700 a pair?

[KevWind]

Actually the HS8 are very good for even well above their price point.

And I am guessing it will take most of that $1700 to really upgrade

For around $1400 a pair the Neumann KH 120 A come highly recommended ( have not used them but know people who do) they should give you some noticeable up tic in clarity and definition and perhaps soundstage.


There may be others as well I am not aware of


From personal experience with Amphion they are a noticeable upgrade in soundstage clarity definition and like the HS 8's are very hard beat as a nearfield monitor for anything near the price .
And because of the passive radiator design they punch above their weight size wise in the low end
For example I had KRK V8s ,,, 8 inch woofer, but my Amphions One 18's with a 6.5 woofer May not have more bass but definitely have a clearer more usable low end

Unfortunately they are going to start with the One 12 (model number not base size) at $1500 but they are passive so you are going to be needing an amp which will run another $150 - $500
Me I might consider saving a bit more and going with the One 15's which will run $2000 for the pair plus an amp for another $250 to $500

[jim1960]

Monitors are a very personal thing and no matter what pair you use, there's going to be a period of time over which you'll have to "learn" the monitors. A friend of mine has an HS8 pair. He loves them; I find them tiring on my ears. The high end is a bit piercing, imo.

I don't know what you don't like about yours so making a recommendation is hard. I will say that I really do like my Neumann KH120 monitors. They don't fatigue my ears the way the Yamahas do. I've also heard people say the Adam monitors are also easy on the ears and they have some in your price range.

In the end, music can be mixed on any set of monitors so long as the person doing the mixing knows what the monitors aren't relaying accurately and knows how to adjust for that. For myself, I want monitors that don't tire my ears, sound great, but don't give me a false sense of the mix. In other words, I don't want them to sound so good that they mask the problems in a mix. If I can't hear the problems, I can't fix the problems.

[BoneDigger]

Thanks guys! So, maybe I'll stick with what I have. But if not, do you recommend Adam or the Neumann?

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by KevWind

... For around $1400 a pair the Neumann KH 120 A come highly recommended ( have not used them but know people who do) they should give you some noticeable up tic in clarity and definition and perhaps soundstage...

Hi BoneDigger,

I bought a pair of Neumann KH120 speakers plus a Presonus Temblor T10 subwoofer about a year ago.

I had been thinking of upgrading my studio nearfield monitors for a while, but was hesitant to spend so much money. However, my oldest son, who runs an Internet-based music composition company, upgraded to the Neumann KH120 speakers, so I was able to hear these speakers in person. My wife was able to hear them, too, and she encouraged me to spend the money.

They are really super-accurate. I was not going to spend the extra money for the Neumann subwoofer, but the Presonus T10 was fairly reasonable in cost and my Sweetwater sales engineer gave me a very good package price. Also, I don't have a huge amount of the subwoofer in the mix, but to me, it really adds just a little bit in the bass department that helps me. I can switch this subwoofer in and out of the mix with a footswitch so I can always hear what it's doing. I believe that most of the huge improvement in monitor sound comes from the pair of Neumann KH120 speakers.

I am very glad that I finally bit the bullet and bought these. I like them a lot.

- Glenn

[jim1960]

I didn't realize there were this many Neumann KH120 fans here. My longterm plans are to add a pair of midfields once I have a bigger studio setup, but I'll hold onto my Neumanns and still use them. They're really great monitors and my ears enjoy them.

Bonedigger, since I've only heard the Neumanns and not the Adams, I'd say get the Neumann KH120 pair. But that's because I can vouch for those. I haven't heard the Adam in person but they're likely to be the first brand of midfields I audition down the road a piece. But the Neumanns are realy excellent, in my opinion and buying those wouldn't be a bad decision by any stretch.

[KevWind]

Hey,,,Todd be interested to see what you finally decide, If you upgrade come back with an up date post please .

[BoneDigger]

I'm still debating it. It won't be an immediate thing. I just want to make sure that if I'm paying $1500 or so for reference monitors, that they will actually be a step or two up from my Yamahas.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by BoneDigger

I'm still debating it. It won't be an immediate thing. I just want to make sure that if I'm paying $1500 or so for reference monitors, that they will actually be a step or two up from my Yamahas.

That probably depends on how well you get along with your HS8s more than anything else. If I already had HS8s and they weren't giving me any issues (ear fatigue, difficult to mix on, etc.), I'd likely stay put. Like I think I said earlier in the thread, I have a friend who mixes on HS8s and he loves them. I only moved onto the Neumanns because one of my Mackie 624s died. I didn't love those Mackies for the same reason I don't love the Yamahas, but I'd probably still be using them if one hadn't retired itself.

[keith.rogers]

What's wrong with the Yamaha's, from your personal mixing perspective?

I have HS5s, and when I went and listened to other monitors, size or cost not being considered, I realized I'd have to learn to hear things entirely differently, and I didn't know enough about what was wrong with my mixes to be able to say, "it's the monitors" to know that changing them would make a the right difference. No doubt it would make a difference, but whether it would make my mixes better, I couldn't say

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

What's wrong with the Yamaha's, from your personal mixing perspective?

I have HS5s, and when I went and listened to other monitors, size or cost not being considered, I realized I'd have to learn to hear things entirely differently, and I didn't know enough about what was wrong with my mixes to be able to say, "it's the monitors" to know that changing them would make a the right difference. No doubt it would make a difference, but whether it would make my mixes better, I couldn't say

Your mixes sound pretty good .
Actually I don't think the advantage of better monitors is an issue of "make my mixes sound better" per se.

Because ultimately it is the choices the engineer makes, and as has been noted, once you learn your monitors you can certainly make good choices.

What better monitors (should) bring to the table is more clarity and better balance throughout the frequency range , as well as width and especially depth wise, in the soundstage .
And I think this helps make it faster and easier to make good choices .
Also I would add that the more complex the mix, the more these attributes become an advantage. In dense mixes being able to accurately hear the spacial placement of each individual instrument helps to keep a denser mix more clear. Particularly in regard to how EQ and or Compression is affecting the individual instruments


And another advantage of better balance and clarity that most engineers feel is important, is that it makes it easier and or quicker to mix something that will translate well to all playback formats

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Your mixes sound pretty good .
Actually I don't think the advantage of better monitors is an issue of "make my mixes sound better" per se.

Because ultimately it is the choices the engineer makes, and as has been noted, once you learn your monitors you can certainly make good choices.

What better monitors (should) bring to the table is more clarity and better balance throughout the frequency range , as well as width and especially depth wise, in the soundstage .
And I think this helps make it faster and easier to make good choices .
Also I would add that the more complex the mix, the more these attributes become an advantage. In dense mixes being able to accurately hear the spacial placement of each individual instrument helps to keep a denser mix more clear. Particularly in regard to how EQ and or Compression is affecting the individual instruments

And another advantage of better balance and clarity that most engineers feel is important, is that it makes it easier and or quicker to mix something that will translate well to all playback formats

Thanks.

I do suspect if I was doing a lot more stuff with more pieces going on I'd feel the need be able to hear the individual parts better. With the relatively sparse things I mostly do that hasn't been an issue, and maybe those kinds of recordings actually emphasize the differences between the monitors more. (I tested with a bunch of my own mixes and was overwhelmed quickly by how different they sounded - not that any of them sounded bad, just different. Well, "duh," different speakers... but it kind of scared me ).

I'm actually pretty happy with how my stuff translates, at least across my own listening environments, but I know there's plenty of room for improvement. Part of that might just be paying a little more attention to really discriminate what it is that's causing that failure to translate, i.e., is it a frequency problem with the speaker, or maybe the room, or perhaps just a bit of laziness on the part of the mixer . This stuff is harder than it appears!

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Monitors are a very personal thing and no matter what pair you use, there's going to be a period of time over which you'll have to "learn" the monitors. A friend of mine has an HS8 pair. He loves them; I find them tiring on my ears. The high end is a bit piercing, imo.

I don't know what you don't like about yours so making a recommendation is hard. I will say that I really do like my Neumann KH120 monitors. They don't fatigue my ears the way the Yamahas do. I've also heard people say the Adam monitors are also easy on the ears and they have some in your price range.

In the end, music can be mixed on any set of monitors so long as the person doing the mixing knows what the monitors aren't relaying accurately and knows how to adjust for that. For myself, I want monitors that don't tire my ears, sound great, but don't give me a false sense of the mix. In other words, I don't want them to sound so good that they mask the problems in a mix. If I can't hear the problems, I can't fix the problems.

I actually worked on a project with both the Yamahas and the Neumanns and the guy doing the mixing preferred the Yamahas as he thought he was getting more accurate mixes with the Yamahas. I think the reason for that is he had learned to work with the Yamahas over a long period of time which goes back to what you stated first. I don't find the Yamahas more tiring and I spent a lot of time with both sets. In this lower price level of monitors to each his own! I typically like Neumann gear that people slag off (I own a Neumann, U87, U89, M147, TLM103 pair, and a KM184 pair), so no prejudice here.

[BoneDigger]

I'm thinking I may just try to get better with the monitors I have. I have learned a lot in the past few weeks about mixing and I think I have a long way to go.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

I actually worked on a project with both the Yamahas and the Neumanns and the guy doing the mixing preferred the Yamahas as he thought he was getting more accurate mixes with the Yamahas. I think the reason for that is he had learned to work with the Yamahas over a long period of time which goes back to what you stated first.

That's really the key to any set of monitors being right for anybody. There's no such thing as monitors you don't have to learn. Every pair is going to require mix confirmation in other environments (i.e. car speakers, headphones, home stereo).

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

I don't find the Yamahas more tiring and I spent a lot of time with both sets. In this lower price level of monitors to each his own! I typically like Neumann gear that people slag off (I own a Neumann, U87, U89, M147, TLM103 pair, and a KM184 pair), so no prejudice here.

My buddy with the HS8s loves his and he says they don't tire his ears at all. I have the same issue with his that I had with my old Mackies: the top end was too brittle and piercing. I worked on those Mackies for a lot of years but hearing the Neumanns for the first time was a joyous moment for my ears. Ironically, the monitors are the ONLY Neumann product I own. I'm not against them in any way, but my voice screams for a 47 and I can't afford a vintage Neumann as they're going for $12k-$15k on the used market. And if you need to replace the VF14 tube, you're looking at another $2k because they're so rare now. I'd also love a KM84 pair but the price of those has gone through the roof recently too. Two or three years ago you could have gotten them for half what they're selling for now.