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  #31  
Old 05-22-2019, 08:57 AM
Paddy1951 Paddy1951 is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
The back is book matched, but, as others have noted, there can be some differences in appearance as the wood is thinned, particularly with flat-sawn wood.



Beyond the question of using flat-sawn walnut, versus quarter sawn walnut, whether or not that particular piece of wood is a good choice for a guitar back is a question of aesthetics. It is not a "blemish" per se. Ditto for the fingerboard. If you like the appearance, it is a good choice: if you don't, it's a bad choice.



For my sense of aesthetics, it isn't an instrument I'd want to own. Unless it was an inexpensive instrument, walnut is a poor choice for a fingerboard: it isn't hard enough to withstand decades of playing. Black walnut is plentiful, and domestic, and is readily available in quarter sawn material. There is no practical reason - but cost savings - to use flat sawn walnut on a guitar. I'm not fond of sap wood, but that's just my preference.



For some reason, I couldn't see the pictures using Safari as a browser, on either desktop or phone.
Read Wade's opinion about walnut as a fretboard wood choice earlier in the thread. There is no speculation in it. He has and had instruments with walnut. Read what he has observed.
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  #32  
Old 05-22-2019, 09:05 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Paddy1951 View Post
Read Wade's opinion about walnut as a fretboard wood choice earlier in the thread. There is no speculation in it. He has and had instruments with walnut. Read what he has observed.
I've been making and repairing guitars for 40 years. I have a different opinion. That my opinion differs from Wade's makes mine wrong or "speculation"?

I appreciate that Wade has a lot of knowledge and experience and is willing to share it. On this point, however, we largely disagree. I see it as not the best choice for a guitar fingerboard, unless it was done as a cost-savings measure on a less expensive instrument.

I'm guessing you own a guitar with a walnut fingerboard, and/or are a Gibson fan?
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  #33  
Old 05-22-2019, 09:12 AM
bufflehead bufflehead is offline
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Originally Posted by elasticman View Post
bought it
Congratulations. My faith in humanity is restored, at least for today. That guitar deserves a good owner. A good left-handed owner.
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  #34  
Old 05-22-2019, 09:43 AM
bsman bsman is offline
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Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
Mercy, usually I’m in agreement with your posts but have to disagree with you about the long term viability of walnut fingerboards. Gmel mentioned Ovation’s use of walnut fingerboards before I could, but they weren’t the only company to use it. I’ve owned a couple of 1920’s vintage Ludwig banjos that were made entirely out of walnut, including the fretboards, and still own a pre-WWII National resonator mandolin with a walnut fretboard.

All of the instruments mentioned in that last paragraph, including a couple of Ovation guitars I owned for a while, had fully functional fretboards. All of them were used when I got them, and all of them got played a lot while in my possession.

Now, I have seen rosewood fingerboards with deep runnels dug into them by owners who apparently never trimmed their fingernails and maybe allowed skin oils to accumulate (or perhaps oiled their fingerboards way too often and softened the wood as a result.) If the same lackadaisical attitude toward instrument maintenance and personal hygiene is used, there could definitely be similar damage done to walnut fingerboards, as well.

But if reasonable care is taken - keeping your hands clean, keeping your nails trimmed, avoiding the temptation of slathering the fretboard with oil every time the strings get changed - there’s no reason at all why walnut can’t be used for fingerboards. I know that for a fact because I’ve got an eighty year old National mandolin in my music room that I’ve played a LOT.

From what I can tell, both it and its walnut fingerboard will still be fully functional in another eighty years.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

I'm going to have to sort of disagree with the disagreement.

I have a travel guitar (Journey OF420B) that has an ovangkol fretboard (Janka hardness 1330 - between walnut (1,010) and EIR (2,440) - and I've found that there are times where I feel like I'm digging the strings into the board a bit. Of course, there ARE a couple of variables at play: I am a lefty playing righty, so I would surmise that my grip on the neck is likely a bit harder than most, and of course those Janka figures are approximates because trees are infinitely variable. Generalities aside, however, I don't know that I'd be comfortable getting a guitar with a fretboard from a wood much softer than the ovangkol.

That said, I think the guitar looks great!

Last edited by bsman; 05-22-2019 at 09:52 AM.
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  #35  
Old 05-22-2019, 09:46 AM
Sax Player Guy Sax Player Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by rokdog49 View Post
Don't know why...can't see the pictures.
I couldn't see them either. My preferred internet browser is Safari. Copied the url and pasted it into a different browser (Chrome) and the pictures were there.

Nine times out of ten if a picture doesn't appear or a video doesn't play on Safari I just try Chrome and it works. Yes, I know, I should switch to Chrome. Safari knows all my passwords, though, and I don't!

Congrats on the new J-15, elasticman!
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  #36  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:29 AM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
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I'm going to be very blunt and say that from my point of view, if I found myself considering a guitar and needing to ask on the forum if it's a blem, that right there would tell me that perhaps I don't appreciate that particular guitar as much as I should in order to enjoy it for a long time. To me, it's a little bit like asking for opinions on whether or not my bride-to-be is attractive enough to marry or rather should be left alone.
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  #37  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:31 AM
JakeStone JakeStone is offline
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Originally Posted by elasticman View Post
bought it

Awesome Congrats!!
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  #38  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:35 AM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
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Originally Posted by gmel555 View Post
I actually love the fretboard, but agree the sapwood not showing on both outside edges of the back bass bouts -while not a blemish- is not as attractive as it could/should be. If I liked the tone and playability I'd try to negotiate an extra 10% or so based on the back not being booked particularly well. (or have them throw in a full set-up) Either way I don't consider it blemished. If I thought it was a tone monster then I'd buy it regardless and eventually appreciate just how unique the back was.

PS: I had an Ovation Adamas with a walnut fretboard for almost 40 years. No issues, but I did use a quality fretboard oil on it once or twice a year.
Me too, I'd kill for a patterned fretboard like this particular one. And the walnut fretboard on my Martin America 1 is one of the main reasons I love that guitar's aesthetics so much. I can't speak to its longevity since I've only had the guitar for a year, but the looks and feel of that walnut fretboard are just fantastic.
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  #39  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:43 AM
elasticman elasticman is offline
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Originally Posted by DesertTwang View Post
I'm going to be very blunt and say that from my point of view, if I found myself considering a guitar and needing to ask on the forum if it's a blem, that right there would tell me that perhaps I don't appreciate that particular guitar as much as I should in order to enjoy it for a long time. To me, it's a little bit like asking for opinions on whether or not my bride-to-be is attractive enough to marry or rather should be left alone.
I liked the guitar from the start. I was looking for purchasing leverage and wanted to get opinions before I approached the seller to do better on price. If it was a blem, perhaps they'd knock down the price.

I don't make decisions based on others opinions. I do, however, appreciate the knowledge and experience I gleam from this board.
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  #40  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:53 AM
12barBill 12barBill is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
The back is book matched, but, as others have noted, there can be some differences in appearance as the wood is thinned, particularly with flat-sawn wood.

Beyond the question of using flat-sawn walnut, versus quarter sawn walnut, whether or not that particular piece of wood is a good choice for a guitar back is a question of aesthetics. It is not a "blemish" per se. Ditto for the fingerboard. If you like the appearance, it is a good choice: if you don't, it's a bad choice.

For my sense of aesthetics, it isn't an instrument I'd want to own. Unless it was an inexpensive instrument, walnut is a poor choice for a fingerboard: it isn't hard enough to withstand decades of playing. Black walnut is plentiful, and domestic, and is readily available in quarter sawn material. There is no practical reason - but cost savings - to use flat sawn walnut on a guitar. I'm not fond of sap wood, but that's just my preference.

For some reason, I couldn't see the pictures using Safari as a browser, on either desktop or phone.
For a while now, for whatever reason, Gibson has been turning out guitars by the boat load with "flat sawn" walnut backs.
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  #41  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:56 AM
Paddy1951 Paddy1951 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
I've been making and repairing guitars for 40 years. I have a different opinion. That my opinion differs from Wade's makes mine wrong or "speculation"?



I appreciate that Wade has a lot of knowledge and experience and is willing to share it. On this point, however, we largely disagree. I see it as not the best choice for a guitar fingerboard, unless it was done as a cost-savings measure on a less expensive instrument.



I'm guessing you own a guitar with a walnut fingerboard, and/or are a Gibson fan?
I wasn't aware of your building and repairing of guitars. I did not see it mentioned. Obviously, you are knowledgeable.

I used the word speculation because I read a lot of things on the forum that are assumptions or speculations.

My apologies to you for doing so.

Walnut probably ISN'T the BEST choice for fretboard use. Poor, might be a bit strong. Your experiences may have shaped your opinion. Fair enough.

I think that how an individual guitar is cared for has a great deal to do with its longevity, however. That said, there are too many members that dismiss using alternative woods on guitars.

I remember when Martin first used Katalox on the 15 series. Some people had hissy fits. To me, it appears to be a very good choice for fretboards.

Yes, I own a J15. I also have a Taylor with ebony, a Martin with ebony, a Seagull with rosewood, a 00-15 with rosewood, and a new Farida with a hard version of acacia.

I expect the walnut fretboard to last longer than I will.

Last edited by Paddy1951; 05-22-2019 at 11:08 AM.
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  #42  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:10 AM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elasticman View Post
bought it
Good for you.
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Martin America 1
Martin 000-15sm
Recording King Dirty 30s RPS-9 TS
Taylor GS Mini
Baton Rouge 12-string guitar
Martin L1XR Little Martin
1933 Epiphone Olympic
1971 square neck Dobro
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  #43  
Old 05-22-2019, 12:28 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Paddy1951 View Post
I used the word speculation because I read a lot of things on the forum that are assumptions or speculations.
I entirely agree. I try to "contribute" only in discussions in which I have relevant first-hand knowledge and/or experience. I avoid speculating or guessing about things for which I do not.

Quote:
My apologies to you for doing so.
Thank you. It is often difficult to differentiate who knows what amongst the contributions on Internet forums.

Quote:
I think that how an individual guitar is cared for has a great deal to do with its longevity, however.
I agree.

Quote:
That said, there are too many members that dismiss using alternative woods on guitars.
I agree. I applaud you for being willing to consider alternatives woods.

Quote:
I expect the walnut fretboard to last longer than I will.
If you treat it with adequate care, it probably will. I've seen many, many guitars were people don't and for whom walnut will wear too quickly.
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  #44  
Old 05-22-2019, 12:31 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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I should clarify what I wrote: walnut is not a wood that I would prefer for fingerboards. I own several walnut instruments, guitars and mountain dulcimers alike, and they all have either rosewood or ebony fretboards.

But I do own and have owned instruments that have walnut fretboards, and they’ve been fine.

However, I do understand the preference for harder woods for that component, and share it myself.

Hope that makes more sense.


Wade Hampton Miller
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  #45  
Old 05-22-2019, 12:32 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Sims View Post
For a while now, for whatever reason, Gibson has been turning out guitars by the boat load with "flat sawn" walnut backs.

I'm aware of that.

As they age, it'll be interesting to see if boat loads of them develop issues. I thank Gibson owners for taking part in the experiment.


Just to be clear, walnuts - black, Claro, English... - are wonderful woods. One of my first instruments was made of quarter sawn black walnut and I have some lovely quarter sawn Claro walnut to use for backs and sides. However, I think it's Kinda soft for fingerboards and traditional experience tells us that quarter sawn is more stable.
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