Gibson J-45 tuner change?

[txcbm]

Alright, I'm about to pull the trigger on a J45 Standard. I'm a little picky about certain things, and the tuners on the Standard are gonna have to go. From what I could find, the stock tuners just have one screw?? I'd like to put Waverlys on it, but don't know how much trouble that would be. They were a drop in replacement on my D-28 Marquis, so it was no problem at all. Anybody here dealt with this issue before? I'm open to other brands, as long as they're open back tuners. I'd like to hear what others have replaced the stock tuners with, and how hard it was. Thanks in advance for any info.

Brett

[Wade Hampton]

Brett, the Gibson J-45 has Grover Rotomatic tuners on it:

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I'm not a big fan of Grover Rotomatics, but if you want to swap out the tuners without having to drill any new holes your only decent option is to get the Gotoh sealed gear tuners that have the same mounting screw hole placement:

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For what it's worth, I understand your attraction to open gear tuners from an aesthetic standpoint. But if your main concern is getting and staying in tune, no open gear tuners are as accurate as sealed gear tuners - not Waverly, not Gotoh, not Grover. I've had all of those tuners on various guitars that I've owned, and the sealed gear Gotohs in the picture above are more accurate than any of them. They have the added benefit of having adjustable tension on them, as well.

But if you have your heart set on open gear tuners, yes, you'll need to get the existing screwholes on the back of your J-45's headstock filled, and new holes drilled. You'll also need to get adaptor bushings to take up the extra space in the shaft holes, since sealed gear tuners have thicker shafts than vintage style gears.

The one exception I've found among the various production company open gear tuners that are as accurate as sealed gear tuners (as opposed to high dollar handmade tuning gears like Rodgers tuners, which I also have experience with,) are the Schertler open gear tuners:

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These Schertler tuners are more accurate than Waverlys, Gotoh open gear tuners, or any of the open gears made by Schaller or Grover. They're superb quality gears. They're not cheap, but I have them on one guitar and would have them on more instruments had I learned about them earlier.

So if you're serious about getting good tuner accuracy as well as open gear tuners, get the Schertlers.

But if you're mainly interested in how the back of the headstock looks, get whatever open gears you like. But understand that you will be sacrificing tuning accuracy for the sake of a vintage look if you go that route.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

The poster above me has it right. I looked into putting Waverley's on my J-45 and after researching the process I decided it wasn't worth it. It's not the kind of work I have the right tools for because I'd want to use a drill-press and filling in holes and re-drilling sounded to me like a recipe for possible problems and why mess with a guitar that's working perfectly already? That's what went through my mind. Others on this forum have done it to J-45s and I expect one or two of them may chime in with more details as well.

[rampix]

My daily player is a J45rw. I didn't care for the gold Grovers that came on it and went searching. After considering all the options I installed a set of the Gotoh sealed tuners that Wade mentioned above. I've been completely satisfied with everything about the Gotohs. A perfect fit with no alteration, nice looking, smooth feel and hold tune...not sure what else I could ask of them.

I too like the looks of open gear tuners, but have found sealed tuners to be smoother and seem to stay in tune better, IMHO.

[SalFromChatham]

I swapped out the tulips on my Southern Jumbo True Vintage for these:

http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...ers_3and3.html

I do agree, there is nothing as accurate as the Grover Rotomatics. They are awesome. Having said that though, for aesthetics I swapped those Grovers out on my Hummingbird - for Tulips. Makes no sense to many, but it did for me.

Here is the SJTV with the Golden Age Restoration Tuners:

[John Arnold]

I'm open to other brands, as long as they're open back tuners.

Open back tuners have two screws, so you will have to drill another hole.

you'll need to get the existing screwholes on the back of your J-45's headstock filled,

No filling of holes is necessary. The single bottom hole used to mount Rotomatics coincides with the bottom screw on the Waverlys. One thing you may need is oversize 'conversion' bushings, which are available from Stew Mac.

[nedray]

If you go to Waverlys or other non-sealed tuners from Rotomatics, you'll have to get bushings to reduce the diameter of the peg holes through the headstock, in addition to matching, filling or ignoring the screw holes on the back. The peg is larger on the sealed tuners. Sort of a hassle and it still doesn't look right.

I just live with the Grovers on my Hummingbird Standard, even though it's not my favorite look. They work great. I remember back in the early 70s, I took Klusons off my J-50 and reamed out the peg holes for Grovers cuz that's what everyone else was doing. Maybe Grovers/Schallers will be hip again some day...

[zabdart]

I'm with Wade. Closed-back, permanently lubricated tuners always work better and are more accurate than any open-back tuners, including Waverlys. The ultimate test of your tuning machines should be how they work, not what looks fashionable. Would you buy a designer gown and wrap your guitar in it rather than store it in a case when it's not in use? The same principle applies.

[Marshall]

Change them ! ! !

The aesthetic of the stock tuners is all wrong. I'm surprised Gibson puts them on there. There are tuners that work fine that look like they belong on a J45.

[downtime]

I swapped the rotomaticis on my WM-45 with Grover Deluxe Keystones and like the look and feel much better.

Drop in replacement except for drilling one extra screw hole per tuner

[txcbm]

As mentioned above, and from what I could find on the web, the holes on the open back tuners matches the one existing hole on the headstock. Should be a pretty easy replacement if that's the case. Just draw a line connecting tuner screw holes and mark the new screw hold location on the same line. The bushings shouldn't be a problem either. I love the looks of the Ivoroid buttons with open gear tuners, similar to what comes on the TV version. Thanks for all the info and replies. I'll have a new J-45 in a couple weeks, so I'll report back!

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Open back tuners have two screws, so you will have to drill another hole.

No filling of holes is necessary. The single bottom hole used to mount Rotomatics coincides with the bottom screw on the Waverlys. One thing you may need is oversize 'conversion' bushings, which are available from Stew Mac.

I had a J-45 Standard with Grovers, and I replaced them with Waverlies. It was exactly as John describes. Use existing screw hole, add additional screw hole, use conversion bushing- nothing to it. It really lightened the headstock of the guitar, good upgrade. I would also disagree that the open backed tuners aren't as accurate as closed back. The new Grovers (Ping) are actually rather sloppy. Admittedly, the Gotoh 510's are in a different league with regard to precision; that said, they all work fine.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

I had a J-45 Standard with Grovers, and I replaced them with Waverlies. It was exactly as John describes. Use existing screw hole, add additional screw hole, use conversion bushing- nothing to it. It really lightened the headstock of the guitar, good upgrade. I would also disagree that the open backed tuners aren't as accurate as closed back. The new Grovers (Ping) are actually rather sloppy. Admittedly, the Gotoh 510's are in a different league with regard to precision; that said, they all work fine.

I wasn't claiming that Grover Rotomatics are more accurate than Waverlies. But I was recommending Gotoh sealed gear tuners, and those are more accurate than any open gear tuners I've owned (aside from Schertlers and the one set of Rodgers gears I have.) So I stand by that.

As for the weight issue, the way I deal with it on sealed gear tuners is to swap out the stock metal tuner buttons for aftermarket buttons of either wood or high quality plastic. These buttons not only improve the balance but add an elegant visual touch, as well.


whm

[BOOSE]

Before I bought my J45 custom I'd seen all sorts of posts about changing the tuners, some because of accuracy and appearance, but a lot of folks had weight issues with the headstock.

Now I have a 45 and the weight issue for me anyway was non-existent, I honestly don't know why people have a problem with it. My 45 is as light as a feather.

I'm certainly not knocking folks who have changed the tuners on 45's and its only my humble opinion but can the folks who've changed them because of weight really tell the difference.

In an imaginary blind test, someone passes you two 45's, one has new tuners and one has the originals, could you tell the difference? Not sure I could.

[txcbm]

Originally Posted by BOOSE

Before I bought my J45 custom I'd seen all sorts of posts about changing the tuners, some because of accuracy and appearance, but a lot of folks had weight issues with the headstock.

Now I have a 45 and the weight issue for me anyway was non-existent, I honestly don't know why people have a problem with it. My 45 is as light as a feather.

I'm certainly not knocking folks who have changed the tuners on 45's and its only my humble opinion but can the folks who've changed them because of weight really tell the difference.

In an imaginary blind test, someone passes you two 45's, one has new tuners and one has the originals, could you tell the difference? Not sure I could.

My issue is purely asthetic. I'm not concerned with the weight of the headstock or the accuracy of the tuners (have never experienced this issue).