True Temperament Curly Frets

[Roger G Lewis]

true temprement necks. Curly frets. written in 1 october 2010

[IMG][/IMG]

I went into True Temperament\Paul Guy Guitars shop\Workshop in Stockholm this afteroon and met Anders Thidell the inventor of the True Temperament Fretting System, I was there for over an hour and had the opportunity to try out 3 instruments.
The first instrument I tried was Anders personal Stratocaster fretted to his own customised personal temperament
the second another Strat fitted with the standard true temperament, and the third was a beautiful custom made acoustic made by a Swedish Luthier and friend of Anders' fitted with one of Anders' own Necks again with the standard true temperament.
The two strats I played through a Fender Champ Vibratone there was a beautiful Fender Showman Valve Amp there with a 4 x 10 cabinet but I used the Champ with all of the effects turned off with the Bass on about 4-5 and the treble on about 6 a really clean tone most of the time. I had a little play on the driven channel with a little gain and whacked a few power chords just to see what it was like, it was fun and the chords rang out clearly and sounded extra heavy the temperament tuned to fifths which I didn't try would I think really hit home ( just as it says on the tin).
Firstly the look of the guitars particularly the ones with the True temperament do not strike you as looking particularly
odd their advertising strap line is "Looks Organic Sounds Divine" and that about sums it up. The look of the neck is very pleasing to my own eye and I was suprised to find that the feel of the neck was just the same as any of my other Guitars, along the fingerboard. I have a Byrdland with a short scale and thin Mandolin Neck and that feels a whole lot different and also the one time I ever played an Explorer that felt a whole lot different to my other guitars and I have a range of necks on my guitars at home from a classic 50's style Les Paul neck on my 74 standard to the thinner neck of my 64 330 and the very different chunky neck of my Master Salute Strat that has Jumbo Fretts.
The two Strats I played felt very comfortable I played a couple of big stretched chords a G# at the 8th frett, thats the c shape barre chord on the 5th string, which is the start chord for the bridge to you aint seen nothin yet by BTO ( the version I play anyhow. and also a descending fingerpicked arpeggio on the C#minor#5, Ano5add2,Ano5\B
Which is the start of the outro to Babe I'm gonna leave ya by led zep the way that Jimmi Page plays it I believe.
These Chords are quite demanding of any guitars set up and also have some interesting intervals, I use them in my practice routine almost every day for finger stregnth work so I am quite familiar with how they sound on my other Guitars which is why I used them today. I could hear the difference as compared to my other guitars all of which have been set up by the Bailey Brothers who are Bristols best known( most Highly regarded) guitar techs so they are very well set up, As Anders runs a guitar set up business as well as the Fretting System company all of the guitars I played today were very nicely set up as well but the difference was discernable to my Ear which I have to stress is not the most sensitive you will ever encounter.
I also played regular Major and Minor scales both Full and pentatonic I played through Dominic Millers arrangement of Fields of Gold ( the Sting Version) and also Wild World by Cat Stevens, again old faithfull favourite tunes of mine and the sound again was just clearer, more in tune.
I found that I adjusted my hand angle slightly for barreing full Barre Chords a very small adjustment I found I had to make to keep from snagging the frett on the narrower points, this was not nearly as much of an adjustment I make to play my Byrdland which I got used to in about 5 minutes after I had it, the Explorer which I played for about an Hour back in August I just couldn't get the Hang of.In short there is not much to get used to with these fretts just the crystal clear intonation.

On the acoustic I messed about with a d#Maj7 chord at the 6th fret with the root on the fifth string which is one of my favourite chords along with a Cadd9 in the open position both chords sounded even more beautiful than normal. I also ran the open a7 shape up the whole fret board which the guy with the pork pie hat from Rock on Good people shows in a lesson on you tube which is a good test of intonation on any guitar again the guitar tone was clear and bell like all the way up the neck, in fact nothing short of spectacularly so.

In case you haven't gathered by now I am absolutely convinced that this system works it is a worthwhile expense for a great improvement in the overall intonation of any guitar, I see very little downside. Just cost really, and its not super expensive for such a huge improvement. WHen I order my custom guitars in future I will definitely be specifying this fretting System. I wouldn't convert my Vintage instruments but I wouldn't change the nuts or any of the original specs on those either. If I ever convince Gibson to Make me a 12 string Byrdland I will definitely have the neck modified to this system or ask them to send the blank Neck to Anders before it is fitted to the body.

I had a close look at the Mean tone Blues guitar but didn't play it that does have addtional drawbacks in that there are a couple of extra frets and at these positions the fretts are radically different and the chord shapes you play have to be different due to the additional fretts adding two extra semitones, I don't think it would be any more difficult than learning different chord shapes for alternative open tunings but for the additional clarity on those bluesey keys it might be worth it for some for me the Standard Even Temperament system is an all round improvement the Meantone for me personally would be a bridge to far ( no pun intended, Sorry Matt)

All in all it was an exciting and rewarding trip I'm glad I made the effort and I will be ordering these necks for my future Guitars.
If you get the chance to try one do If I can hear the difference and appreciate it then anyone with an intermediate grasp of the instrument would I think be impressed given the time to explore the range of the properties endowed on instruments fitted with this system. A great experience and Anders is a very cool guy a real gent.
www.truetemperament.com
Roger G Lewis is online now Report Post Reply With Quote

[guitarlifter]

Originally Posted by Roger G Lewis

true temprement necks. Curly frets. written in 1 october 2010

[IMG][/IMG]

I went into True Temperament\Paul Guy Guitars shop\Workshop in Stockholm this afteroon and met Anders Thidell the inventor of the True Temperament Fretting System, I was there for over an hour and had the opportunity to try out 3 instruments.
The first instrument I tried was Anders personal Stratocaster fretted to his own customised personal temperament
the second another Strat fitted with the standard true temperament, and the third was a beautiful custom made acoustic made by a Swedish Luthier and friend of Anders' fitted with one of Anders' own Necks again with the standard true temperament.
The two strats I played through a Fender Champ Vibratone there was a beautiful Fender Showman Valve Amp there with a 4 x 10 cabinet but I used the Champ with all of the effects turned off with the Bass on about 4-5 and the treble on about 6 a really clean tone most of the time. I had a little play on the driven channel with a little gain and whacked a few power chords just to see what it was like, it was fun and the chords rang out clearly and sounded extra heavy the temperament tuned to fifths which I didn't try would I think really hit home ( just as it says on the tin).
Firstly the look of the guitars particularly the ones with the True temperament do not strike you as looking particularly
odd their advertising strap line is "Looks Organic Sounds Divine" and that about sums it up. The look of the neck is very pleasing to my own eye and I was suprised to find that the feel of the neck was just the same as any of my other Guitars, along the fingerboard. I have a Byrdland with a short scale and thin Mandolin Neck and that feels a whole lot different and also the one time I ever played an Explorer that felt a whole lot different to my other guitars and I have a range of necks on my guitars at home from a classic 50's style Les Paul neck on my 74 standard to the thinner neck of my 64 330 and the very different chunky neck of my Master Salute Strat that has Jumbo Fretts.
The two Strats I played felt very comfortable I played a couple of big stretched chords a G# at the 8th frett, thats the c shape barre chord on the 5th string, which is the start chord for the bridge to you aint seen nothin yet by BTO ( the version I play anyhow. and also a descending fingerpicked arpeggio on the C#minor#5, Ano5add2,Ano5\B
Which is the start of the outro to Babe I'm gonna leave ya by led zep the way that Jimmi Page plays it I believe.
These Chords are quite demanding of any guitars set up and also have some interesting intervals, I use them in my practice routine almost every day for finger stregnth work so I am quite familiar with how they sound on my other Guitars which is why I used them today. I could hear the difference as compared to my other guitars all of which have been set up by the Bailey Brothers who are Bristols best known( most Highly regarded) guitar techs so they are very well set up, As Anders runs a guitar set up business as well as the Fretting System company all of the guitars I played today were very nicely set up as well but the difference was discernable to my Ear which I have to stress is not the most sensitive you will ever encounter.
I also played regular Major and Minor scales both Full and pentatonic I played through Dominic Millers arrangement of Fields of Gold ( the Sting Version) and also Wild World by Cat Stevens, again old faithfull favourite tunes of mine and the sound again was just clearer, more in tune.
I found that I adjusted my hand angle slightly for barreing full Barre Chords a very small adjustment I found I had to make to keep from snagging the frett on the narrower points, this was not nearly as much of an adjustment I make to play my Byrdland which I got used to in about 5 minutes after I had it, the Explorer which I played for about an Hour back in August I just couldn't get the Hang of.In short there is not much to get used to with these fretts just the crystal clear intonation.

On the acoustic I messed about with a d#Maj7 chord at the 6th fret with the root on the fifth string which is one of my favourite chords along with a Cadd9 in the open position both chords sounded even more beautiful than normal. I also ran the open a7 shape up the whole fret board which the guy with the pork pie hat from Rock on Good people shows in a lesson on you tube which is a good test of intonation on any guitar again the guitar tone was clear and bell like all the way up the neck, in fact nothing short of spectacularly so.

In case you haven't gathered by now I am absolutely convinced that this system works it is a worthwhile expense for a great improvement in the overall intonation of any guitar, I see very little downside. Just cost really, and its not super expensive for such a huge improvement. WHen I order my custom guitars in future I will definitely be specifying this fretting System. I wouldn't convert my Vintage instruments but I wouldn't change the nuts or any of the original specs on those either. If I ever convince Gibson to Make me a 12 string Byrdland I will definitely have the neck modified to this system or ask them to send the blank Neck to Anders before it is fitted to the body.

I had a close look at the Mean tone Blues guitar but didn't play it that does have addtional drawbacks in that there are a couple of extra frets and at these positions the fretts are radically different and the chord shapes you play have to be different due to the additional fretts adding two extra semitones, I don't think it would be any more difficult than learning different chord shapes for alternative open tunings but for the additional clarity on those bluesey keys it might be worth it for some for me the Standard Even Temperament system is an all round improvement the Meantone for me personally would be a bridge to far ( no pun intended, Sorry Matt)

All in all it was an exciting and rewarding trip I'm glad I made the effort and I will be ordering these necks for my future Guitars.
If you get the chance to try one do If I can hear the difference and appreciate it then anyone with an intermediate grasp of the instrument would I think be impressed given the time to explore the range of the properties endowed on instruments fitted with this system. A great experience and Anders is a very cool guy a real gent.
www.truetemperament.com
Roger G Lewis is online now Report Post Reply With Quote

I don't doubt that this fretting system is great for intonation, but good God is that an ugly fretboard! I'm not so sure how I would handle the uneven frets. My mind will be fully occupied with mastering my Baranik-to-come's fan fret. I'm not so sure if I would be ready to jump to squiggly frets. :P I wonder how much it would cost as an added option from any given luthier (I'm sure it varies). Heck, an even better question would be whether or not any luthier would want to even attempt such a thing! I had a luthier reject making me a lefty fan fret because he said that it would be too difficult to make a lefty fan fret unless I wanted to pay about an extra $6,000 or so for the design work. I'd imagine that such a fretting system may evoke similar reactions from some luthiers. It's interesting to say the least.

[Wade Hampton]

The question that occurs immediately to me is how well this system would work with alternative tunings and radically differing string gauges. The main advantage to the standard fretting system we now use, admittedly flawed and compromised as it is, is that it does a good overall job as a known and knowable average.

Even with that, if you want the best possible intonation it's still advisable to get a custom-carved saddle that's precisely dialed in to the exact gauge of strings you're going to use. Because altering the gauge and/or tuning of the strings has quite an effect on the physical placement of where the strings need to cross the bridge saddle.

I have no doubt that Mr. Thidell has got his system worked out so that it's very precisely dialed in for the string gauge he prefers, but what happens if Stone Age throwbacks like myself who like heavier-than-average strings restring a curly fret-equipped guitar with noticeably heavier strings?

Maybe that will have no effect at all, or if it does perhaps it can be adjusted at the bridge. But it's a relevant question, because it's obviously much easier to deal with this sort of difference at the bridge than it would be to try to uproot and then reconfigure the frets themselves.

Any insights you or Mr. Thidell might have on those issues would be appreciated.


Wade Hampton Miller

[murrmac123]

My first thought was "How are the frets affixed to the fretboard ?"

Obviously not with a conventional tang, unless the fretboard is slotted with a CNC router ...

[DamianL]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

I have no doubt that Mr. Thidell has got his system worked out so that it's very precisely dialed in for the string gauge he prefers, but what happens if Stone Age throwbacks like myself who like heavier-than-average strings restring a curly fret-equipped guitar with noticeably heavier strings?


Wade Hampton Miller

Out of interest, what happens to you when you have done that on previou guitars?

I have strung guitars that had 11s with 13s and noticed very little change and. I don't notice my guitar goin out of whack when I move to DADGAD or open G...I may well be tone deaf/accustomed to the status quo...but I would only see this new fret design as starting from a new starting point with the appreciable difference in intonation being the same relative to the difference I currently perceive when shifting gauges/tunings... i.e. not a lot...


But it is a very intriguing design...

Damian

[DamianL]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

My first thought was "How are the frets affixed to the fretboard ?"

Obviously not with a conventional tang, unless the fretboard is slotted with a CNC router ...

Last time I saw thi discussed I am sure it came up that they are CNC'd...

[Wade Hampton]

Where the change has been most noticeable has been when I've put a guitar into a lower tuning on a more or less permanent basis. It's not as noticeable when you go from light gauge to medium gauge strings while staying in standard tuning, but when you tune a guitar D to D while trying to maintain the same overall tension as the guitar had before (by using heavier strings) it's REALLY noticeable. What I've done to solve the problem has been to have new saddles carved.

Which is why I asked. There are plenty of people who use far more radical tunings than simply dropping the strings a full step, so what effect would that have on curly fret guitar?


whm

[steveyam]

The current system that we all use - when set up properly; low action at the nut, a well cut, well positioned saddle - is a great compromise and perfectly adequate for the job. You can even use nuts with steps in them - like a stepped saddle - to improve the intonation further. It does not sound out of tune and it will readily accomodate different tunings, different string gauges and different playing styles.

I am not a fan of these idiosyncratic, oddball fretting methods. Just not necessary. To the inventor, I am sure they mean 'the world'.

[Jobe]

..........

[Bikewer]

I'm with Steveyam... For my admittedly non-super-audiophile ears, the standard fretting system sounds just fine, thanks, and enormous numbers of very fine guitar players have made wonderful music using it....

There are always going to be tinkerers who are in search of "perfection", but it's going to be an elusive perfection.... I fear one fellows perfect is another's not-quite.

[tadol]

Played a guitar with these at Healdsburg. Its a very nice system, and sounded good, but i think ive gotten used to the "imperfections" inherent in stamdard fretboards. If i found a decent, inexpensive guitar built with them, i would like to be able to buy it and spend an extended time with it - i think I'd grow to like it very much. That said, i have neither the ear or talent to justify the expense, compared with any of the many outstanding guitars built with traditional fingerboards. Plus, I'd have some concern about long term maintenance like dressings and such. And i remember you couldn't do bends particularly well . . .

[Matt Mustapick]

This thread may lead some to the misapprehension that there is something left wanting by a standard fretboard. Such is not the case. The standard fretboard (and fan frets too, since they have straight frets as well) is the precise implementation of a centuries old "gentleman's agreement" among western-tradition musicians to use equal temperament tuning, and in its conception and design (and execution when done at the limits of what's possible), there are no imperfections in it.

There are other temperaments, infinite ones. Every temperament solves some issues that are intrinsic to harmony while worsening others. The reason Equal Temperament was largely adopted was because it equally smears these harmonic problems all over the musical map, so that no matter what you play, in what ever key, everything will sound pretty darn good...let's say "par". It is the nature of harmony that, taking equal temperament as a starting point, any time you make one interval or harmony sweeter, you make another one somewhere else on the map worse...for every eagle you shoot, there's gonna be a bogie somewhere else. Every other temperament other than Equal is designed to sweeten some harmonies, some chord voicings, or keys, or musical situations, but always at the expense of making somewhere else on the map sound worse.

Many temperaments, for instance "Just Tuning" and "Well Tempering", are points of interest on this "map of harmony" because they were commonly used in points past. Common usage is important because it allows musicians to play with each other.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Matt Mustapick

This thread may lead some to the misapprehension that there is something left wanting by a standard fretboard. Such is not the case. The standard fretboard (and fan frets too, since they have straight frets as well) is the precise implementation of a centuries old "gentleman's agreement" among western-tradition musicians to use equal temperament tuning.

Two caveats:

The first is that you can have an instrument that doesn't make those compromises ... but it can't play in every key. It'll be perfect for one key, and hideously out for a bunch of others.

Secondly, it's important to understand that this guitar isn't actually about what most musicians talk about as "temperament" - equal temperament vs just temperament or whatever.

This guitar is about intonation. For some reason, guitarists have started using the word temperament to refer to attempts to solve the intonation problems inherent in guitar design. This is a mis-use of the word and ends up being somewhat confusing.

Guitars have intonation issues because the string stretches slightly as you push it down, sharpening the pitch. Different tunings and different string types and sizes will change the nature of this issue, which is why most electric guitars have adjustable saddles. Whereas acoustics generally have to be "correct" for a smaller part of the fretboard (upper fret access is less of an issue) so we make do with non-adjustable saddles in favor of better top resonance.

You could do the curvy-fret thing to adjust for temperament (using the word correctly) but you'd only be doing it for one key. Your guitar could be perfectly tempered for one key but playing in other keys would get screwy. However, this would be a bad idea because it'd stop you from playing with other musicians - even in the same key. My tempered-for-A minor-guitar will sound out of tune with an equal-tempered piano, for example.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Two caveats:

The first is that you can have an instrument that doesn't make those compromises ... but it can't play in every key. It'll be perfect for one key, and hideously out for a bunch of others.

Secondly, it's important to understand that this guitar isn't actually about what most musicians talk about as "temperament" - equal temperament vs just temperament or whatever.

This guitar is about intonation. For some reason, guitarists have started using the word temperament to refer to attempts to solve the intonation problems inherent in guitar design. This is a mis-use of the word and ends up being somewhat confusing.

Guitars have intonation issues because the string stretches slightly as you push it down, sharpening the pitch. Different tunings and different string types and sizes will change the nature of this issue, which is why most electric guitars have adjustable saddles. Whereas acoustics generally have to be "correct" for a smaller part of the fretboard (upper fret access is less of an issue) so we make do with non-adjustable saddles in favor of better top resonance.

You could do the curvy-fret thing to adjust for temperament (using the word correctly) but you'd only be doing it for one key. Your guitar could be perfectly tempered for one key but playing in other keys would get screwy. However, this would be a bad idea because it'd stop you from playing with other musicians - even in the same key. My tempered-for-A minor-guitar will sound out of tune with an equal-tempered piano, for example.

Matt's an expert on this topic as I just had a similar discussion with him about this a short time ago. He was referring to the fret spacing corresponding to equal temperament, I believe, when referring to how temperament related to the guitar, not intonation.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by tadol

I'd have some concern about long term maintenance like dressings and such.

Good point. What happens when the frets start to get significant wear? How on earth would that problem be addressed? Would the guitar have to go back to Sweden to get refretted?

Needless to say, I don't see your average strip mall music store guitar repair tech being able to work effectively on a guitar equipped with this fret system.


whm