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  #16  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:49 AM
Cochese Cochese is offline
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Originally Posted by JWJ915 View Post
No, he is a sound engineer who also happens to work at this music shop. He is a professional. He runs sound at many local events. Don't make assumptions. We had a DI between the guitar and the mixer when using the QU16 and the Yamaha boards, and went into a Hi-Z channel on the Mackie board. I'm no professional, but I'm no dummy either. I had to push the guitar to almost 50+ dBs on each board and it sounded like trash. So maybe something is not right with the electronics in my guitar then?
Sound engineer is meaningless. Anyone that operates a PA system for hire or works for a sound company can call themselves that. There isn't really a school that these guys go to. It's on the job training and some learn more along the way than others. I don't consider myself an expert but I do work for a company (Tech 21 the makers of the SansAmp) and we manufacturer DI's so I do know a thing or two.

Let's start over. I read your original thread and noticed you mentioned you have an Empress Para EQ on your board. I used to own one. Great unit. That in and of itself should easily solve your problem as it has a low Z output and is capable of 30dB of boost. Of course this also depends on how you're using it. What is your specific signal chain from start to finish? Hopefully you don't have the PAD engaged on the Empress.
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  #17  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:41 AM
JWJ915 JWJ915 is offline
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Sound engineer is meaningless. Anyone that operates a PA system for hire or works for a sound company can call themselves that. There isn't really a school that these guys go to. It's on the job training and some learn more along the way than others. I don't consider myself an expert but I do work for a company (Tech 21 the makers of the SansAmp) and we manufacturer DI's so I do know a thing or two.

Let's start over. I read your original thread and noticed you mentioned you have an Empress Para EQ on your board. I used to own one. Great unit. That in and of itself should easily solve your problem as it has a low Z output and is capable of 30dB of boost. Of course this also depends on how you're using it. What is your specific signal chain from start to finish? Hopefully you don't have the PAD engaged on the Empress.
I'm not doubting your knowledge or capability at all - hope you didn't think that. I just trust this guy at the shop as well. Truth be told, I haven't had the guitar long enough to even run it through the ParaEQ yet. I didn't even know there was a PAD on that pedal.. where is that located? As far as pedal chain goes: tuner > compressor > ParaEQ > looper > delay > reverb > DI > mixer. Maybe there's a better order? I'm all ears. However, I haven't run this particular guitar through my board yet, just simply straight to those mixers. Thanks for helping me. I appreciate it.
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  #18  
Old 07-25-2017, 10:18 AM
Cochese Cochese is offline
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I'm not doubting your knowledge or capability at all - hope you didn't think that. I just trust this guy at the shop as well. Truth be told, I haven't had the guitar long enough to even run it through the ParaEQ yet. I didn't even know there was a PAD on that pedal.. where is that located? As far as pedal chain goes: tuner > compressor > ParaEQ > looper > delay > reverb > DI > mixer. Maybe there's a better order? I'm all ears. However, I haven't run this particular guitar through my board yet, just simply straight to those mixers. Thanks for helping me. I appreciate it.
The input PAD is located on the top right corner a little to the left of the Boost control. So you were running the guitar without the pedalboard directly to the mixer? Did he try just a 1/4" first or the DI? On the little Mackie mixer you referenced you should easily be able to make it work.

Did you try setting the ES2 with the EQ's at their center detents and cranking the gain to 3/4.s? When you say he's cranking the gain there are some things to consider. A mixer has 3 stages. There is the channel input trim which should be adjusted first per the manufacturers instructions. Generally, you need to set the input trim for unity gain to drive the mixer to the proper level. Next is the Channel fader ( the input channel of your guitar) and finally the master fader. Because the output buss is designed with the most head room if that is set at unity your channel faders shouldn't be set higher. If they are, it means your speaker system is not enough. You can run higher but in a perfect world you should have room to spare and not be maxed out.

The mixer is only part of the story. Is there a big speaker system/monitor system. What type? Regardless of the mixer, if you have a powerful amplification/speaker system this will yield more headroom.
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  #19  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:09 AM
JWJ915 JWJ915 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
The input PAD is located on the top right corner a little to the left of the Boost control. So you were running the guitar without the pedalboard directly to the mixer? Did he try just a 1/4" first or the DI? On the little Mackie mixer you referenced you should easily be able to make it work.

Did you try setting the ES2 with the EQ's at their center detents and cranking the gain to 3/4.s? When you say he's cranking the gain there are some things to consider. A mixer has 3 stages. There is the channel input trim which should be adjusted first per the manufacturers instructions. Generally, you need to set the input trim for unity gain to drive the mixer to the proper level. Next is the Channel fader ( the input channel of your guitar) and finally the master fader. Because the output buss is designed with the most head room if that is set at unity your channel faders shouldn't be set higher. If they are, it means your speaker system is not enough. You can run higher but in a perfect world you should have room to spare and not be maxed out.

The mixer is only part of the story. Is there a big speaker system/monitor system. What type? Regardless of the mixer, if you have a powerful amplification/speaker system this will yield more headroom.
Correct - only straight to the mixer. Have not tried a 1/4" directly to the mixer on the QU16. Did that with the Mackie since it has that Hi-Z input. Do you have any suggestions to address this on the QU16, as this is my primary console. My PA consists of two EV EKX12p tops and two EV EKX15sp subs. I think they're all 1400 watts a piece, the subs may be 1300 watts actually.
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  #20  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:45 AM
Cochese Cochese is offline
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Did you make it work with the Mackie? Unfortunately with the A&H there is so much going on it makes finding the answer a little more difficult. I'm trying to contact my soundman as he has an A&H board and he also used to rep their gear. My band has the QSC Touchmix 16 we mainly use as our monitor mixer and sometimes mains. I have noticed that on that mixer compared to my Soundcraft it seems the gain needs to be cranked a bit more but 60dB of gain is more than enough.

I'll see if I can find out a little more info and write back later. The EV's are decent speakers. I used those before. What are you running for monitors?
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  #21  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:50 AM
JWJ915 JWJ915 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
Did you make it work with the Mackie? Unfortunately with the A&H there is so much going on it makes finding the answer a little more difficult. I'm trying to contact my soundman as he has an A&H board and he also used to rep their gear. My band has the QSC Touchmix 16 we mainly use as our monitor mixer and sometimes mains. I have noticed that on that mixer compared to my Soundcraft it seems the gain needs to be cranked a bit more but 60dB of gain is more than enough.

I'll see if I can find out a little more info and write back later. The EV's are decent speakers. I used those before. What are you running for monitors?
I really didn't get it to a point that I thought was acceptable on the Mackie either. I had about 45+ dBs of gain on that as well. Maybe I'm just not doing something right, but there's not much to that board when compared to the QU16. I use EV ELX112Ps for monitors. Thanks much for reaching out to your buddy! I really appreciate that. And I know that I've only scratched the surface of the QU16 capabilities.
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  #22  
Old 07-25-2017, 05:08 PM
Cochese Cochese is offline
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I talked to my friend but he was one of their bigger boards. He did confirm that he tends to run the gains higher on digital boards than on analog ones. This is true with our QSC Touchmix as well. Are you a light, heavy or medium player?

I just compared my older Taylor that has the D-Tar Wavelength pickup which is an 18 volt system to the ES2 equipped Taylor. Since there is no volume on the D-Tar it runs flat out which I did with the ES2. In both boards here my Soundcraft EFX8 and my Mackie 1202 VLZPro I was able to get more than enough gain with either guitar. The gains were fairly close so I wouldn't say the ES2 is weak since most find the D-Tar hot output.

The line channels are padded down so I had a TRS to XLR cable and used that with both guitars though neither are balanced. The signal was much hotter going into the mic channel with the XLR but either way the guitar was always loud enough.

My friend thinks there may possibly be a software gain somewhere on the A&H but you may need to dig into the manual a bit or contact them and explain the issue.

What other instruments and sources are you running? Is your guitar the only thing that's not loud enough?
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  #23  
Old 07-25-2017, 05:23 PM
JWJ915 JWJ915 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
I talked to my friend but he was one of their bigger boards. He did confirm that he tends to run the gains higher on digital boards than on analog ones. This is true with our QSC Touchmix as well. Are you a light, heavy or medium player?

I just compared my older Taylor that has the D-Tar Wavelength pickup which is an 18 volt system to the ES2 equipped Taylor. Since there is no volume on the D-Tar it runs flat out which I did with the ES2. In both boards here my Soundcraft EFX8 and my Mackie 1202 VLZPro I was able to get more than enough gain with either guitar. The gains were fairly close so I wouldn't say the ES2 is weak since most find the D-Tar hot output.

The line channels are padded down so I had a TRS to XLR cable and used that with both guitars though neither are balanced. The signal was much hotter going into the mic channel with the XLR but either way the guitar was always loud enough.

My friend thinks there may possibly be a software gain somewhere on the A&H but you may need to dig into the manual a bit or contact them and explain the issue.

What other instruments and sources are you running? Is your guitar the only thing that's not loud enough?
No, that particular guitar is the only instrument I've struggled with as far as volume goes. Were you able to make the guitar sound pleasant to your ears? I struggle with that as well when the guitar is at 45-50* dBs.
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  #24  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:59 PM
Cochese Cochese is offline
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What are the other guitars that you are using and what systems? The ES2 system has kind of a hyped almost mic quality. You either like it or you don't. I find with most acoustics they sound better if you have some distance from the speakers or happen to be using a coax type speaker. Those are more accurate in the near field. I kind of prefer the D-Tar system but the ES2 system speaks for itself.

Here are a couple of clips with the guitar direct. The first is more strummy with a pick. The second is finger picked and I'm not too accomplished with finger picking.



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  #25  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:19 PM
JWJ915 JWJ915 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
What are the other guitars that you are using and what systems? The ES2 system has kind of a hyped almost mic quality. You either like it or you don't. I find with most acoustics they sound better if you have some distance from the speakers or happen to be using a coax type speaker. Those are more accurate in the near field. I kind of prefer the D-Tar system but the ES2 system speaks for itself.

Here are a couple of clips with the guitar direct. The first is more strummy with a pick. The second is finger picked and I'm not too accomplished with finger picking.



Wow - really impressive playing. I thought both recordings sounded great! That was direct into the board? Any DI?

I had a Seagull SWS with the Q1 system and an Alvarez with a K&K Pure Mini. I really loved the acoustic sound of this Taylor 210, but have been unimpressed with it electrified so far. I've always heard when buying guitars you buy them for their acoustic tone (among other things), but I play quite a few gigs and I do want a guitar that sounds appealing to me electrified as well. Funny thing is, I demo'd it through a Fishman Loudbox Mini and I thought it sounded great. I haven't been able to reproduce those sounds though.
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  #26  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:53 PM
Cochese Cochese is offline
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Wow - really impressive playing. I thought both recordings sounded great! That was direct into the board? Any DI?

I had a Seagull SWS with the Q1 system and an Alvarez with a K&K Pure Mini. I really loved the acoustic sound of this Taylor 210, but have been unimpressed with it electrified so far. I've always heard when buying guitars you buy them for their acoustic tone (among other things), but I play quite a few gigs and I do want a guitar that sounds appealing to me electrified as well. Funny thing is, I demo'd it through a Fishman Loudbox Mini and I thought it sounded great. I haven't been able to reproduce those sounds though.
Thanks. yes direct. As I recall just into my Motu828MKII and into Cubase. I had a Seagull that sounded good with the old Baggs Ribbon system but that guitar broke. How did you use the K&K as that needs a preamp. I had very little luck with that system live and finally just clipped the wires and replaced it with the D-Tar.

Part of the frustration playing acoustic live is most PA speakers have differences in tone and phase when you move to.different areas and also different volume levels will change the sound. In the studio you listen through near field monitors and they have a more true sound.

With something like the Loudbox, it's more like a guitar amp and depending upon the position and also they are not powerful so it's easier to find the sweet spot. I just used one of my Tech 21 Power Engine cabs and ran my T5 and Taylor 612 through it with my Fishman Platinum Analog EQ and it really sounded so nice and full. That speaker is not full range so I ran the XLR through into my studio monitors that added some nice sparkle to the tone.

There are a lot of guys that use acoustic amps or even electric guitar amps with their acoustics live. Jason Mraz runs his guitars through Fender Twin and Deluxe reverbs.

I think if you're buying a guitar to use plugged in buy the one that sounds great plugged in and get a different guitar for it's acoustic attributes. My cheap little Seagull always sounded great plugged in. I think a cheaper guitar that is not all solid wood amplifies a bit better.

If you have the Loudbox try it and just send a through to the PA. You might need to play with the ES2 system a bit. I think the folks at Taylor have a different idea of tone than most. I also used my 522 and 612 with a Fishman Rare Earth and that pickup has really low output.

You do have the Empress and that is more than enough to boost the signal though you should be able to figure out the A&H mixer. Those digital mixers are so confusing. I like analog where what you see is what you get. Diving through menus and presets can get a little tiresome at a gig. Our monitor mixer was totally messing up last weekend because our singer ran the update and the whole thing went south. The first set we had a really bad mix until he fixed it later. Technology is great until it isn't.
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  #27  
Old 07-27-2017, 07:09 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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I've only dealt with one ES2 guitar in my area, but don't recall having any problem with level or much problem with the tone. I do recall the amplified tone being a little boomy. If you're having that issue, I can imagine that it might be helpful to use your EQ box to deal with the boominess in a precise way so that it isn't necessary to roll off the entire low end.


I agree with the folks who've observed that the ES2 should be giving you enough signal level to run to a direct box, or directly to a line input. (You've mentioned going to a High Z line input which is OK, but its worth mentioning that the ES2 is an active system which should be properly impedance matched for any line input.)

Like others here, I'm wondering if your ES2 system is functioning properly. Have you experimented with adjusting the pressure on the three sets of piezo elements? (Forgive me if someone has already suggested this.) I have to think that adjusting those will have some effect (hopefully a positive one) on the tonal balance and output level.
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