Question about Luthier Wait Lists & Pricing

[Rockysdad]

I'd have to say, if you're good with it then go ahead.
I myself would look around, there a lot of very good Luthiers out there, and find it hard to believe that there is not one out there that would satisfy your desires. (in less time)

[k_russell]

If this is the guitar that you really want then you are probably stuck with the pricing arrangement. In this situation, I would be looking for another builder. There are plenty to choose from.

I have purchased 2 custom built guitars, at the price that the builder was charging, when I ordered the guitar.

[frankmcr]

Yes, but, again, the price the OP is being quoted is the price when the OP is ordering the guitar.

There is no "2019 price" other than the price that is being charged in 2019.

[RP]

Originally Posted by roylor4

I have no experience with this, but the logic doesn't cut it IMO.

He gets to factor in increased demand (which may or may not exist later) increased price on materials (that they may already have and could possibly diminish) and have the money to invest while the op has no guitar and loss of the use of the money (or at least a portion of it).

As already mentioned, there's no guarantee the builder will still be in operation in 3+ years.

I have a hard time seeing the upside here. Ymmv

Originally Posted by Teleplucker

Find another builder. There are plenty of folks doing top notch work...

Totally agree....

[robj144]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

Yes, but, again, the price the OP is being quoted is the price when the OP is ordering the guitar.

There is no "2019 price" other than the price that is being charged in 2019.

Don't understand what you're trying to say here.

There is a current base price and the dealer wants more than the current base price.

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by robj144

Don't understand what you're trying to say here.

There is a current base price and the dealer wants more than the current base price.

That makes no sense at all. (I mean the policy, not your reply!)

If the current base price is not a price that the guitar can be purchased for in the real world - and the whole point of the OP is that it is not - then said "current base price" is a fiction. It's meaningless. If the dealer is even mentioning that "price", they have no clue what they're doing.

If the luthier in question is reading this: Hey! Find another dealer to represent you!

[CitizenAudio]

I think what's said so far in the thread is reasonable and fair. An agreed-upon locked-price at the time a deposit is made is straight-forward and clear.

However, some of you may know, that Kim Walker approaches orders differently (Obviously, the luthier/dealer in question is not Kim Walker--he is not taking orders). Making a deposit with Kim (which is currently unavailable) only locks in your position on the list and not the final price. He did this because he noticed that his guitars would consistently sell for higher than what he was charging for, and even in some cases, resellers were making close to if not more money than Kim was. In Kim's case, he continued to increase the price of his builds according to what the market was dictating.

I think I read about this on this forum--search for it. You can also read his policy on his website.

Other than Kim, I don't really know who else practices this model.

And obviously, this scenario is slightly different because its the dealer that is quoting the price and not the builder directly.

But in a market where you are building guitars and your guitars are selling more than what you're selling them for, I totally understand keeping a fluid final price in order. Having others profit more from your work than yourself doesn't seem right.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by CitizenAudio

I think what's said so far in the thread is reasonable and fair. An agreed-upon locked-price at the time a deposit is made is straight-forward and clear.

However, some of you may know, that Kim Walker approaches orders differently (Obviously, the luthier/dealer in question is not Kim Walker--he is not taking orders). Making a deposit with Kim (which is currently unavailable) only locks in your position on the list and not the final price. He did this because he noticed that his guitars would consistently sell for higher than what he was charging for, and even in some cases, resellers were making close to if not more money than Kim was. In Kim's case, he continued to increase the price of his builds according to what the market was dictating.

I think I read about this on this forum--search for it. You can also read his policy on his website.

Other than Kim, I don't really know who else practices this model.

And obviously, this scenario is slightly different because its the dealer that is quoting the price and not the builder directly.

But in a market where you are building guitars and your guitars are selling more than what you're selling them for, I totally understand keeping a fluid final price in order. Having others profit more from your work than yourself doesn't seem right.

I believe that classical builder Eric Sahlin uses a similar model. And his wait list is between 9 and 11 years, last I heard.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple of thoughts from someone who has commissioned MANY custom guitars directly from a dozen different custom luthiers:

Size of Deposit - a 25% deposit is large by industry standards (I do know that Jim Olson asks for this amount, but he is an outlier). As a point of reference, Ervin Somogyi has an 8% deposit and Jeff Traugott charges 16%. I think you will find that most reputable builders ask for enough to ensure commitment which is usually in the ~10% range. The purpose of a deposit is to establish the serious commitment of a client to 1) have a luthier block time in their future schedule and 2) cover the time that a luthier may spend with you pre-build selecting wood and specifying or designing aspects of your guitar.

Not locking the price at the time of commitment by both parties - Others have mentioned Kim Walker’s policy which is an outlier among his peers. I think Kim got tired of selling his new guitars for less than what some people were selling his guitars used for. Kim is NOT a “hot, young” builder and commands a well deserved, somewhat unique position among his peers.

Typically, when a builder works through a dealer, they sell the guitar at a discount to the dealer and the client pays what they would pay if purchasing the guitar directly. This can be 15-20% for the dealer. Not locking their price at the time of commitment (deposit) only shows a partial commitment on the part of the builder. I am personally not a fan of this type of business arrangement even with well established builders. With a “hot, young” builder it honestly seems ludicrous. The only reason to EVER work through a dealer on a prospective commission is to jump ahead on their build queue.

My $.02

Originally Posted by lfarhadi

Hi all, Would appreciate any insights on this:

I'm considering putting down a deposit with a well-known and respected dealer, who officially represents one of the "hot" young builders. The build would be delivered in 2022, and dealer is asking for a base price that is 25% higher than the builder's 2019 prices. They explain that the builder has set this price increase for their 2022 builds. From my perspective, if I'm paying for a guitar 36-40 months away, I should probably be locking in today's price.

Anyone been through this and can opine on my reasonable expectations should be?

Thanks in advance!

[CitizenAudio]

Well said! Thanks for sharing data and your experience!

[gitarro]

There is no monolithic way in which all luthiers so their business - especially luthiers with multiple year waiting lists who can basically set their terms and the customers have to follow.

There are luthiers with extremely long waiting lists to have floating prices where you do not even know what the price is when you place the order - it depends on what price he fixes for the year when your build finally is built, and the price rises every year. I know of one with a 8-9 year waiting list but he is not the only luthier who does this. If you dont like it, dont worry, you cannot get on his waiting list anyway because it is closed. The only other way to get a new guitar is to buy one from his dealer when it does come out and the dealer has two slots a year but the price is the current market price for his guitars.

I have noticed that there are quite many younger luthiers with longer wait lists who are fixing different t prices for slots later in their build lists nowadays and the 25 percent discount seems more common with them whereas the older luthiers normally ask for much smaller deposits.

Therefore what the op is getting through the dealer is one of his pre ordered slots in 3 years time and I assume that if he ordered through the luthier, that is either impossible as the build list is closed or it is even longer than 3 years away.

Also it is true that you miss out on interactions directly with the luthier if you deal through the dealer but one must not forget that many customers have become friends with their dealers after ordering many guitars through them.and the dealer has acquired much skill in helping the customer choose what is best for him through his knowledge of the customer's preferences in guitars and also serving many different customers. And since he has no other job he can usually give much more time to discussing with the customer on these things than the luthier and there are many luthiers who find such interactions fun but are unable to devote much time to them as they have so many guitars to build. There are also other luthiers who do not like interacting with customers and prefer dealing with dealers.

[bho]

Every guitar I have commissioned, from several different luthiers, locked the price at the time of my order. Many of those commissions took over a year or two.

I think the risks of agreeing to this deal that many have pointed out are valid.

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by Mike Sylvia

I think your well respected dealer is taking you for a ride. I have ordered many other custom made goods, and the cost would be their current price, not what they might be charging when the item is complete.

If this is the luthiers way of doing business, I would be looking elsewhere.

In my experience, the price is from the year ordered. Most, as far as I know, do not schedule price raises that far ahead - or that regular. I'm not saying this man is doing anything wrong - as long as he is upfront about it, it is not wrong. But it is on the unusual side.

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I believe that classical builder Eric Sahlin uses a similar model. And his wait list is between 9 and 11 years, last I heard.

Eric sahlin has indeed a prodigiously long waiting list though his deposit is only $50 while Walker's deposit is $500. On the other hand both are a long way away from 25%.

[lfarhadi]

OP Here,
I'd like to sincerely thank everyone who commented. The insights were very helpful and I'm certainly factoring them in when deciding the pros and cons.