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  #16  
Old 08-25-2020, 07:51 PM
Everton FC Everton FC is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidE View Post
Wow, right away I'm floored by how loose the whole thing is. You're on the money.

Check out Parsons with Emmylou Harris by his side. There's a lot of excellent stuff out there. It's harsh, but Parson's passing might be the best thing to happen to Emmylou at the time. Harsher than I mean, but it gets the gist of what I mean across I hope.
I love the Byrds and Parsons. The Byrds "morphed" - the early "hits" didn't necessarily sound like the later ensembles. I like it all.

Parsons w/Emmylou is gold. I like all of Parsons work - w/the Burrito Brothers, on his own, w/Emmylou... It's all worthy of "study"...
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  #17  
Old 08-25-2020, 10:40 PM
rwmct rwmct is offline
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Originally Posted by mercy View Post
does anyone have info on Gram pre Byrds?
There are a few biographies. And several interviews here and there with Chris Hillman, Emmylou Harris, Keith Richards, and others. He is extremely well covered for someone who was influential but not well known.
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  #18  
Old 08-26-2020, 08:16 AM
mercy mercy is offline
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I just finished listening to the Grevious Angel album and it pure country. Not being a country music fan I found it hard to listen to as Gram has a unremarkable voice. I get it that a songwriter is not expected to have a good voice, Bob D, but the only song I liked on the album was Love Hurts and he didnt even write that one. I have GP which Ill listen to next but I think Im done with this rabbit trail.
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  #19  
Old 08-26-2020, 09:14 AM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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I haven't heard the concert you reference, but now for one of those long posts I can't help but make about what I think I've learned from a lot of listening and reading over the years regarding this era. Feel free to roll your eyes.

The Byrds didn't have a rep as a great live band back in the day, and this may also be intensified by the fact that they had a string of very good LPs that were well engineered and recorded for their time. They weren't really a proto-jam band,* nor did they "sound just like the record" as a band playing their hits, missing the targets for two different audiences.

Live sound was extraordinarily primitive in those days. Too much amp volume on stage, to little effectiveness in monitors. Chemical imbalances possible in every part of the signal chain from the musicians through the road crew and house mixers. Tight bands in those days had to almost have ESP for the other members to be effectively tight and properly locked in. The Byrds overall were never that kind of cohesive collective unit, made up as they were not of rock band vets but of various folkies more used to performing as singles or duos in a "folk" context. Again, later on they tried to remedy that, but band turnover means the chemistry never got established.

The main reason a band sounds tight is the rhythm section. There's nothing wrong with Roger McGuinn's comping in a many contexts (I love Roger McGuinn!) but he's never struck me as the kind of groove machine that can takeover a band's groove on his own (like a Keith Richards, Nile Rodgers, type player). Chris Hillman became an inventive bassist in the melodic bass player vein, perhaps because of his mandolin background. I can listen to "Younger than Yesterday" on repeat and never got bored with the parts he comes up with. But like McGuinn he's not the kind of anchor groove that can mitigate a problematic rhythm section. But most importantly, the drum chair was often an issue.

I mentioned this to UK scene vet Silly Moustache a couple of times, and my manner may not communicate well, but though it's a big generalization a huge difference between white bands in the UK and the US in the Sixties was that there were many many more good drummers over there, and many bands with similar drummer issues to the Byrds over here. My working theory was that the prior to the Beatles "Trad Jazz" fad meant a lot of drummers had worked in a jazz band context and/or had been tutored by someone who had--and maybe even some holdover from British Isles regimental and brass band drumming or something. In the US, drummers got picked often enough looking for a "Ringo" for the group. Michael Clarke, the original Byrds drummer was said to have been picked for his Brian Jones visuals not for his chops. The Rolling Stones didn't pick Charlie Watts for his teen appeal. The original Ringo was picked even though the existing Beatles drummer had (maybe too much according to some stories) teen appeal, but his chops didn't pass muster.



*Yes they tried that a bit later on, because the ballroom circuit came to expect it. I happen to like "jam bands" and the Byrds. When I get to the part of the Venn diagram where those things overlap (circa "Untitled") I'm OK with it without that version of the Byrds replacing the more influential proto jam bands like the Dead and the Allmans.
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  #20  
Old 08-26-2020, 10:06 AM
TeleBluesMan TeleBluesMan is offline
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Interesting analysis, FrankHudson. Especially about the maturity and ability of the rhythm section. Perhaps that's one reason the original Paul Butterfield Blues Band had such an impact and influence on other bands of that era. They had a solid, mature and experienced rhythm section in Sam Lay or Billy Davenport on drums and Jerome Arnold on bass. That definitely made a difference.
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  #21  
Old 08-26-2020, 12:16 PM
frankmcr frankmcr is offline
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The live recording half of Untitled is pretty good, as I remember.
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  #22  
Old 08-26-2020, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mercy View Post
I just finished listening to the Grevious Angel album and it pure country. Not being a country music fan I found it hard to listen to as Gram has a unremarkable voice. I get it that a songwriter is not expected to have a good voice, Bob D, but the only song I liked on the album was Love Hurts and he didnt even write that one. I have GP which Ill listen to next but I think Im done with this rabbit trail.
Sorry you didn't enjoy Grievous Angel. Although I wouldn't characterize Gram's voice as unremarkable, it wasn't strong. To my ear he does deliver a vocal with a lot of emotion, and some find the fragility of his tenor voice endearing. I think his best work was when he was harmonizing with someone else. At least he had the good fortune to have had two terrific singing partners in Chris Hillman and Emmylou Harris.

If you're still looking for some early country rock that approaches the genre from a harder edged rock basis, search out a band called Rank and File. Some have characterized them as proto country punk. I'm not a big punk music fan, but I love Rank and File.

Here's a video of the band (unfortunately lip-synced) doing a track from their Sundown album:

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  #23  
Old 08-27-2020, 07:39 AM
mercy mercy is offline
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thanks, I liked that some but Amanda Ruth better. They are a tight group with interesting songs. Its odd how some groups become well known and others not. Id say this group was better than he Byrds but Ive never heard of them. I was listening to the Eagles yesterday and their folk rock songs are just wonderful, back in the day i hadnt heard of them but maybe thats because my listening was limited to the radio station in a small town. The only records I was buying was surf bands, especially Ventures, and then I stopped buying records when I quit playing bands.
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  #24  
Old 08-27-2020, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mercy View Post
Thanks Tele, I like that iteration better. The impression I got immediately from the Piper event that Gram was superfluous.
Judging a the "tightness" or smoothness performance based on such an absolutely crappy sounding recording is fraught with the perils of inaccuracy.
First off and most importantly you are not hearing the actual "performance", you are hearing an awful recording compounded by any deficiency and inaccuracy in your playback system . And I am guessing it was recorded bootleg, on a cheap portable cassette from the audience, given the significant lack of range of the the dynamic spectrum. It may well have been a "rough" performance, but there is really no way you can "accurately" determine that. Kinda like judging the color relationships of a painting through a fog bank,,,,,, JUSSS sayin'
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  #25  
Old 08-27-2020, 08:15 AM
TeleBluesMan TeleBluesMan is offline
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Default Dillard & Clark

Don't remember if anyone mentioned Dillard & Clark in this discussion. They were an early country-rock band, led by ex-Byrd member Gene Clark and Doug Dillard of The Dillards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dillard_%26_Clark
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  #26  
Old 08-27-2020, 09:50 AM
catdaddy catdaddy is offline
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Originally Posted by mercy View Post
thanks, I liked that some but Amanda Ruth better. They are a tight group with interesting songs. Its odd how some groups become well known and others not. Id say this group was better than he Byrds but Ive never heard of them. I was listening to the Eagles yesterday and their folk rock songs are just wonderful, back in the day i hadnt heard of them but maybe thats because my listening was limited to the radio station in a small town. The only records I was buying was surf bands, especially Ventures, and then I stopped buying records when I quit playing bands.
I believe Amanda Ruth was the "single" release from the Sundown album. It's all good stuff. As for their being better than the Byrds, I'm not one to do that sort of comparison especially where the styles of the bands are so different.

I'm not much of an Eagles fan beyond their Desperado album. For me that represents their best melding of country/folk/rock. Perhaps not surprising as Bernie Leadon had migrated from The Flying Burrito Brothers to The Eagles just before they made that record. Everything since Desperado is just a little too pop rock for my tastes. Having said that, I think they were a much more accomplished live band than most of their contemporaries.

If you haven't checked out the band Poco for a different twist on country rock, you should. Also, some of (especially Richie Furay's songs) The Buffalo Springfield stuff has an early country rock flavor that you might find enjoyable.

There's been a lot of cross pollination with many of these bands. As such you might want to check out the band Souther, Hillman, Furay where the members of the group include backgrounds with The Byrds, The Flying Burrito Brothers, The Eagles, Poco and The Buffalo Springfield, and more.
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  #27  
Old 08-27-2020, 10:14 AM
mercy mercy is offline
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I have a couple of Poco CD;s and like some of the stuff like Amy, I think is theirs and Cimarron, stuff like that. I agree about their rock stuff "a little too pop rock for my tastes". Yes some Buffalo Springfield I like. Ive never heard a live recording of either I dont think. I like some of the Souther, Hillman, Furay band stuff.
Since we are not professional critics but on this forum we just state our opinions, your opinion that we cannot compare is fine. My opinion is that I do compare which is ok also. We are just talking about music and where else can we do that but here. Well maybe you can but I cant. There is no one in my town that I know that I can talk music with. I do appreciate all the comments that have been made. Its enjoyable but it has also expanded my knowledge.
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  #28  
Old 08-27-2020, 10:21 AM
TeleBluesMan TeleBluesMan is offline
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Mercy, I assume you are familiar with The Band, and the Grateful Dead around the time of Workingman's Dead, and the New Riders of the Purple Sage.
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  #29  
Old 08-27-2020, 12:08 PM
TeleBluesMan TeleBluesMan is offline
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Default PS Dillard & Clark

Here's Dillard & Clark doing Train Leaves Here This Morning, later covered by The Eagles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyTw1-N96U0
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  #30  
Old 08-27-2020, 01:51 PM
catdaddy catdaddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy View Post
I have a couple of Poco CD;s and like some of the stuff like Amy, I think is theirs and Cimarron, stuff like that. I agree about their rock stuff "a little too pop rock for my tastes". Yes some Buffalo Springfield I like. Ive never heard a live recording of either I dont think. I like some of the Souther, Hillman, Furay band stuff.
Since we are not professional critics but on this forum we just state our opinions, your opinion that we cannot compare is fine. My opinion is that I do compare which is ok also. We are just talking about music and where else can we do that but here. Well maybe you can but I cant. There is no one in my town that I know that I can talk music with. I do appreciate all the comments that have been made. Its enjoyable but it has also expanded my knowledge.
You might be thinking of Amie, a song by Pure Prairie League, another country rock band with a pretty extensive history and a discography that's worth checking out.

I agree with you that this forum is a place where opinions can be shared and should be welcomed. My reluctance to compare bands was not intended as a criticism of your opinion, it's just my personal preference. I've enjoyed your comments and hope that you'll feel free to keep expressing your thoughts here.
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