Vocal pre-amp

[Andromeda]

Does any one use a vocal pre-amp for either recording or performing and if you do what are the advantages and what would you recommend?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Andromeda

Does any one use a vocal pre-amp for either recording or performing and if you do what are the advantages and what would you recommend?

Hi Bill...
A preamp is used for all recording, and the better preamp & mic one uses the better the results. There are preamps that cost as little as $75 and as much as $2500 (per channel).

Like guitars, there are those who own and support every level of preamp and some who buy handbuilt preamps and obsess over them like I do my handbuilt guitars. Others buy preamps and send them to people who modify them to sound better.

I'm not sure whether I'd classify preamps as vocal versus instrumental, but those who own studios full of them describe that they find themselves gravitating toward certain combinations of mics and preamps for vocals (and certain mics) more than others.

I think my AKG 414 microphone for tenors and sopranos sounds best while the Shure KSM-44 mic seems better with altos and baritones. And I have a particular tube preamp that sounds better with bass guitars plugged into it directly as opposed to the others in our studio.

As for preamps for recording versus live performance, we who perform rely on the preamps built into the PA board on the channel to provide the preamplication for live mics and they typically cost much less than their studio conterparts.

Yes there are obsessive performers who carry tube preamps to gigs and use them to front-end their performances. I ususally smile, because while they are going to improve the quality of the signal they feed the PA board, it's still going through the inexpensive preamps built into the PA mixer.

I even have a friend who carries tube preamps, and a raw power amp which feeds his speaker array without any mixer, EQ or other processing - and it still sounds like a singer and his guitar. Nobody I know of - except for him - raves about the quality of his sound, and he frankly doesn't do anything exceptional with the guitar that would cause them to comment on that either...but he enjoys his obsessions.

Your budget and projected use will determine what you can afford. If you want to spend $400 a channel you will get professional results. I actually have heard pro results with far less expensive equipment than that.

[martind gibsona]

Yes there are obsessive performers who carry tube preamps to gigs and use them to front-end their performances. I ususally smile, because while they are going to improve the quality of the signal they feed the PA board, it's still going through the inexpensive preamps built into the PA mixer.

Why would you run a mic through a tube preamp and then through a preamped channel on the board? I'd think that if that's what you're doing, you'd run the preamp output to one side of a non-preamped stereo channel on the board. Are they just stupid, am I stupid, or are we both stupid?

Don Smith

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I ususally smile, because while they are going to improve the quality of the signal they feed the PA board, it's still going through the inexpensive preamps built into the PA mixer.

Not true, at least for many boards. While some cheap mixers with line in jacks simply pad the input and run the signal through the channel's preamp circutry, many boards do not. The line in truly bypasses the preamp and is sent, as received, to subsequent parts of the mixer (generally, the mix bus). And manufacturers often don't tell you which topology is in their design.

So, I guess you can smile, but it might be based on a false premise.

[Rick Shepherd]

Hi Bill, I agree with everything Larry just stated. If you are going to get serious about recording, then investing in a nice preamp is a good idea. It also means buying good mics, a good pair of monitors, and either an computer sound interface or a standalone recording interface.

My recording gear consisits of the following:

Peluso 2247LE large diameter condenser microphone (for vocals)
Matched pair of Gefell M300 small diameter condenser mics (these are great for recording guitar)

Avalon AD2022 dual channel mono/stereo preamp (I use this pre for recording guitar and vocals)
Universal Audio LA-610 preamp (with built-in EQ and Compressor) (I use this primarily for vocals)

Universal Audio UA2192 AD/DA Converters (this device converts the analog signal from the preamps to digital signal) This converter is not really necessary, because the sound card listed next has its own converters built in that can be used, but I wanted a higher quality converter, so I got this one.

E-MU 1212m sound card (this PCI sound card is how I get my signal from the converter into the computer)

Sonar recording software for multitrack recording.

Soundcard outputs go to the amp, then to my monitors or headphone amp.

As you can see, this is a relatively high end setup, but there are many other less expensive options out there that you can get great results from. I list my setup just as an example of what if can look like.

In short: Mic --> Mic Preamp --> soundcard with ad/da conversion in computer --> output to monitors

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

...So, I guess you can smile, but it might be based on a false premise.

Hi SdSr...
No it's not. I have friends who own front end gear who simply feed it as a balanced output (XLR) to the sound techs who plug it into a snake and the people setting the house are not running those through a line in, they are just using a standard XLR in without bypassing anything.

My post was not a hypothetical, but what I actually find people doing. Sure there are some great modern boards with a lot of options on them - that neither the people playing the shows locally or the sound techs mixing them know what they are.

People who are equipment savy know to request things of the house, and even how to make it happen if the techs don't know what they are talking about and are open to learn. Others just concentrate on their gear without knowing much about the house systems they play through...and I find them in the majority (we own/operate several PA systems).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by martind gibsona

Why would you run a mic through a tube preamp and then through a preamped channel on the board? I'd think that if that's what you're doing, you'd run the preamp output to one side of a non-preamped stereo channel on the board. Are they just stupid, am I stupid, or are we both stupid?

Hi Don...
Not stupid - ignorant. To quote my 4th grade teacher ''Stupid means you cannot learn, and ignorant means you have not learned yet.''

From years of PA and studio work, it is my obversation that most players are woefully ignorant about gear, mics, PAs etc. - particularly performers who have avoided the use of pickups, or stage gear and find themselves in a place they want to/need to perform publicly in venues too large to perform without amplification.

They often go to the local music store and ask them to supply the needed equipment, which they pay too much for and still don't know how to operate, and which is often sub-par.

Some do end up in the ''overkill'' column and they end up with first class gear, and still don't know how to hook it up and use it properly.

I also see a lot of churches and other public institutions buying fabulous mixers, and fairly decent outboard gear, speakers and EQs compressors etc. and they limit their use of these to mixing volume levels, and minimal tone adjustment. They don't have anyone who can teach them to use it. You cannot believe how many times when I'm playing in these venues I've asked ''Do you have the phantom power turned on?'' only to look at the techs and get a blank stare followed by ''I'm not sure what that is.''

To avoid embarrassing them, and in order to help them and stay on their good side (because they are like God - if they turn your channel off, you are dead in the water) I make my first contact with the sound techs back at the board these days. And we chat and I ask non-threatening questions and ask if they will help me by setting things a certain way. I know my stage gear and how to make it work in most situations...and I know how to be friends with others who's assignment or job it is to make us look good.

Now to answer your question ''Why would you run a mic through a tube preamp and then through a preamped channel on the board?''

1- You don't know better
2 - The sound crew doesn't know any better either
3 - The house board doesn't have the capability to do anything else.
4 - I didn't bring my own system large enough to cover the house (or was not allowed to).

People and institutions and civic auditoriums etc are proud of their gear and feel threatened if we criticize it. They have spent top dollar for it, and want others to use it...and I do. I figure I'll not sound any worse than others who are using the same gear...and if I feed the techs a good signal, I might even sound better than the others.

[Rick Shepherd]

Bill, each mic and preamp will have it's own character. The higher end ones, generally, are most likely going to give you better results. This does not mean that those results will be pleasing to your ears, but it means that the more expensive preamps and mics are hand built using high quality components, and have a lower noise level. If a person is recording multiple tracks, the end result might be cleaner, quieter, and may have better separation of sound between tracks.

But having highend gear won't ensure highend results. Your recording space will also influence the final results, along with your own ability to bring out the best in the equipment. So, it involves alot of trial and error, of where to place the mics in relation to the source, the settings on the preamp, etc.

Depending upon your budget, and how seriously into it you want to get, I can make some recommendations if you want.

[Earthworm]

Rick,
I'd be interested in hearing your recommendations for the following categories of Mic Preamps:

Under $300

Under $700

Under $1500

[TBman]

I use a tube preamp for my recording Bill, its a Presonus BlueTube. It didn't cost an arm and a leg, but more than a couple of hundred. It gives a nice warm tone to the guitar. I can't sing so I've never tested it with vocals.

[MuzicMaKen]

Originally Posted by Earthworm

Rick,
I'd be interested in hearing your recommendations for the following categories of Mic Preamps:

Under $300 - Presonus

Under $700 - Aphex

Under $1500[/QUOTE]
Great Rivers (ranks right up there with Avalon)
Robbie the mic pre
Focusrite
Avalon

no matter what anyone tells you when it comes to pre-amps...you get what you pay for and there IS a noticable difference in the higher end preamps and the lower end preamps. If you are serious about recording then this is one piece of your recording gear you do not want to skimp on....I use a few preamps..Avalon, Great Rivers, Aphex, and Presonus....When recording vocals I use no less than the Avalon , Great Rivers, or Focusrite. You can definately tell the difference in warmth between them....

just my 2 cents...

[Rick Shepherd]

Rick,
I'd be interested in hearing your recommendations for the following categories of Mic Preamps:

Under $300

Under $700

Under $1500

This would be difficult, because there are so many good ones in each price range, but it depends on what you want to record. If you decide to record in stereo, then a dual channel pre is what you need, so that dramatically affect prices.

I would go over to the www.gearslutz forum and do some research, as well as www.homerecording.com

Universal Audio, Avalon, John Hardy, Great River, Chandler, Presonus, API, GML, Vintech, A-Designs, Grace Designs, Groove Tubes, Manley, Focusrite, Sebatron, etc. The list goes on.

[Fran Guidry]

I put together a little preamp comparison for my Homebrewed Music blog. Listen to the samples and see how much difference you can hear between the $100 preamp and the $1500 preamp.

http://www.fxguidry.com/pblog/index....y070224-133138

Fran

[Rick Shepherd]

Fran, Granted, in your samples, there doesn't sound like much difference, but if you were to record multiple tracks an listen to them, I would bet there will be more of a difference. The separation of sound from different tracks will be more clearly defined with a higher end preamp, and quieter due to the lower self noise as a result of better quality parts and workmanship. Why else would the pros, or anyone else buy a high end pre if you could get the same results from a cheap one? It is not because of hype.

[valleyguy]

The reality is that for each increase in incremental cost, you do not get an equal increase in quality. Just like guitars,a $3k guitar sounds better (to some) than a $1k guitar, but not that much better.

Today's recordings have really raised the bar in so far as quality is concerned. Recordings from the 70s & 80s used much lower quality stuff than is available today so t took more work to make them sound good.