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#1
08-10-2020, 01:31 PM
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Durability and longevity of HPL
Hi all,
My buddy is considering a Martin X series guitar but has concerns over the durability and longevity. Looking at past forum posts, some have had issues with the body separating from the body. Members that are luthiers mentioned that the X series Martins come in the shop so often due to issues. The HPL material has also been known to be hard to repair. Is he better off with laminate B&S at this price range? Anyone have any experience with these guitars? 
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#3
08-10-2020, 01:51 PM
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I would say that any bump or condition that causes HPL to separate will cause more damage to wood, solid or laminate. I have never talked to anyone who had problems with HPL, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
I had a 000CX1AE for 12 years with no issues at all. I just bought a 000X1AE brand new and it is still in one piece LOL. I have found it to be a durable, well-built, nice sounding instrument. As for repairs, some luthiers don't want to work on lower priced instruments due to the cost vs. value of the repair, so I wouldn't worry too much about repairs anyway. Besides, if you buy new, there is a warranty FWIW from Martin. It is, of course, your choice since you will live with the outcome.
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#5
08-10-2020, 02:54 PM
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I bought 5 guitars this year, the cheapest der one for 2700,- €. And now I‘m always shocked to listen to my laminate, back and sides/ solid top old Breedlove because it sounds that good.
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Martin D-18MD, Martin OM-21, Martin CEO-7, Martin J-40, Martin 000-1, Guild D-55, Guild D-140, Gibson SJ-200, Gibson Hummingbird, Gibson Frank Hannon Love Dove, Gibson Southern Jumbo, Furch Gc-SR Red Deluxe, Furch Yellow Masters Choice, Larrivee P-03ww, Kawaii piano, mandolines, drumsets, doublebass, Fender Jazzbass, ...
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#6
08-10-2020, 05:55 PM
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HPL is made up of about 70% paper and the rest is resin. The paper is then bonded together under high pressure and heat. To show the durability you can see the other uses of HPL. It’s used in kitchen countertops and in flooring. HPL is heat resistant up to 180 degrees. It’s resistant to moisture and scratches. So if you compare it to a wood product it is more durable. I have had a little Martin LXM all HPL (except the neck, which is durabond). My son used it to learn guitar when he was ten years old and still plays it. It still looks new.
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#7
08-10-2020, 07:14 PM
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So my first guitar was a DX1 Dread. It's about 12 years old now.
It sounds surprisingly good and has gotten better with age. The key is this has the solid top (which I would highly recommend). An all HPL will sound the same the day you buy it and 10 years from now. They are also pretty easy to repair I've been told. Mine took a tumble off a chair and broke open the back and side. I can't even tell where the spill happened. My guitar repair tech said he prefers to work with HPL as they are quite easy to fix.
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#8
08-11-2020, 08:40 PM
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HPL will last a reasonably long time if taken care of. That being said I have a wood laminate guitar that is probably 150 years old.
Unsupported HPL tends to get brittle and can warp with age. HPL is a generac term for Formica, Wilsonart, Pionite, Nevamar and similar paper/phenolic laminates. It has been used for countertops for many years and can stand a fair amount of abuse, but once the photo finish surface layer is worn off there is no refinishing it. I've used HPL for back and side material to build cheap and cheerful dulcimers, guitars and ukuleles. It is relatively easy to work with and eliminates much of the finish work (sanding, filling,staining, and lacquering) associated with wood products. It is not indestructible but is less sensitive to environmental changes than most wood products. Repairs require a different approach than those of wood materials. Replacement of entire parts rather than patching in pieces. Laminate is cheap and relatively easy to work with, and repairs are probably better done by the local cabinetmaker or countertop shop rather than a luthier.
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#9
08-11-2020, 09:40 PM
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Maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I would rather have a laminate than an HPL, plus I've always been underwhelmed playing those Martin HPL's, too my ears anyway, all personal preference.
As far as durability, my friend has one and its a bit beat up as he has 4 busy boys under 10, it seems to be intact, though scratched and dinged. He's had it for around 6 years.
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#10
08-11-2020, 11:24 PM
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I have a DCX1E (I call her Dixie) that is around 10 years old. I totally love it. I’m sure that in a blind test, most people would like it very much. It’s just the thought of HPL that puts people off.
It has an unfinished spruce top that has darkened nicely with time. The HPL body is light and strong, and is more robust than wood could ever be. The stratobond neck might look a little unusual in its ‘grain’ pattern, but it is super stiff and this guitar never goes out of tune because of it. It also has that Martin sound. As you can tell, I love my HPL guitar 
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#11
08-12-2020, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
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#12
08-12-2020, 06:06 AM
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I gigged with a Violin and cello for four years using a Martin 000X1 (Solid top) to which I added a Martin UST. It sounded suprisingly good unplugged. I carried it around with a gig bag, and never suffered any damage. I sold it last year after i had worn the frets down considerably. To my ear, these guitars sounded slightly compressed and even from low to high, as if the were mic’d.
There are various threads and articles elsewhere about HPL. Having seen examples of HPL separation, I don’t think it is any more difficult to repair than solid wood or laminates. On the other hand, if your HPL guitar suffers a “ka-bong” injury, it is more likely the repair (if possible) will be ugly.
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#13
08-12-2020, 06:28 AM
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If your guitar has a solid wood soundboard it can have a good unplugged sound. I consider HPL to be the modern counterpart to Torres' paper mache experiment. It has some good qualities for back and side material - relatively light and stiff yet easy to bend with the addition of a little heat.
From a manufacturing standpoint it's hard not to love - a cheap material ($1.25/sq ft) that comes in large sheets (5X12 ft.) Enough material for the back and sides of a guitar comes in at around $6.25 and as mentioned requires no additional materials and labor for finishing. If you use it for the soundboard deduct the price of the spruce and finish work and add another $2.50. Add $1.25 for the spruce sticks and plywood for linings, bracing, and blocks and for about $10 in materials you have a guitar body. Most HPL guitars don't have bindings or elaborate purflings - another significant cost saving for the maker. With the plywood neck and a cheap set of tuners I would be surprised if Martin has more than $25 in material costs and probably about 6 or 7 hours in labor.
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#15
08-12-2020, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
The price of a good quality instrument grade plywood would come in at around $3 a sq.ft., so about $15 for the back and sides. The solid sitka top $5 (that's what I've paid for Engelmann buying 100 tops per order), mahogany neck blank $5, ebony bridge blank $2, ebony fingerboard, $10, tuners $10, finishing material $10, Misc $10 (strings, fret wire, plastic nuts and saddle) Probably about $65 -$70 in materials, more or less. Additional labor for finishing the wooden body (sanding, filling, staining, lacquering, but not buffing a satin "as is" finish) 2 hours. So probably double the price of HPL for materials and 8 to 10 hours labor. Labor is really hard to estimate considering the amount of automation in these modern factories and may be less. Also the economy of purchasing large quantities can help bring down material costs. Actually considering what they sell them for they must have the labor costs (fewer hours) much lower. Last edited by hermithollow; 08-12-2020 at 09:39 AM.
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