steel string tuning pegs for nylon string guitar

[charles Tauber]

Stupid question of the day:

Has anyone built a nylon string guitar designed to use standard steel string tuning machines? If so, was it successful?

I've never liked slotted peg heads and it occurs to me I don't have to, even if making a classical guitar. The hole in the post of steel string machine heads might be too small - easy to check - and sealed housings weigh a little more than open machines. One could use a steeper head angle, if worried about sufficient downward pressure on the nut, given the lower tension strings.

Just curious.

[Earl49]

Charles, before owning a nylon string guitar I would sometimes put nylon strings on my old 1968 Silvertone guitar that was built for steel strings. I replaced the stock open gear tuners with Gotoh’s more than 30 years ago. The conversion went ok, but a new nut was needed, as were ball-end nylon strings. As long as the holes in the posts are big enough for the strings (mine were) it worked fine. I share your preference for paddle-head over slot-head guitars.

[Quickstep192]

I have exactly such a guitar. It has Grover locking tuners. The idea behind the locking tuner was that you could pull the string tight through the post, snug the lock and then tune up the string. Without the locking tuner and the ability to tighten the string before tuning it up, the string will take so many wraps that the capstan it will run out of room for the wraps.

It works well. You’ve got to be careful to not overtighten the string lock on the unwound strings or it will break them, but just snugging the lock does the trick.

Hope this is helpful.

[nikpearson]

Whilst a slotted headstock can look lovely and reduces weight in that area I much prefer re-stringing instruments with solid headstocks.

What about the traditional looking flamenco tuners with the clever planetary gears inside? This would allow a solid headstock and look traditional. I’ve tried Pegheds on a couple of ukuleles and they worked very well and looked rather nice too. Wittner also make something similar.

[dmaynard]

Wouldn't changing the roller diameter from 10mm to 6mm have the effect of making 14 to 1 tuners feel like 21 to 1 tuners? That might be a pain with nylon strings.

[printer2]

I used regular SS tuners for a couple of guitars. It worked well. As far as tuning goes it seems to make tuning easier.

[Quickstep192]

Originally Posted by dmaynard

Wouldn't changing the roller diameter from 10mm to 6mm have the effect of making 14 to 1 tuners feel like 21 to 1 tuners? That might be a pain with nylon strings.

It does, but it’s not so bad once the strings settle in.

[ac]

Rainsong used to make a smaller parlor guitar with paddle head and nylon strings. I see no sign of this guitar on their website any longer. Maybe they have some of the left over tuners available that they used?

The peg looks larger than normal pegs for steel strings.

I found photos of the tuners, but I don't recognize what company makes them. Maybe an inquiry to Rainsong could pin it down.

[charles Tauber]

Thanks to all that responded: all good and useful information and experience.

The Rainsong tuners do appear to have larger diameter posts than typical steel string machine heads. The larger diameter posts would reduce "sensitivity" of the tuners. That is, for each rotation of the post's shaft, there would be more wrap of the string around the post than for a smaller diameter post: i.e. more string tension change per rotation.

Based on the discussion thus far, I'm on the fence about locking vs. non-locking tuners. Looking at Gotoh's somewhat confusing website, they have a dizzying selection of tuners, locking and non-locking and options for posts and buttons. I'm impressed with their technology, including multiple arrangements of locking tuners, some that allow one to adjust the height (length) of the posts, some that automatically lock the string as one rotates the tuner buttons. One interesting possibility is their "Stealth": https://g-gotoh.com/product/st31/?lang=en. It can be purchased with or without locking capabilities. Has anyone any experience with the Stealth machine heads?

The bass E string on classical guitars is a smaller diameter than the same steel string: fitting nylon strings through the holes shouldn't be an issue.

Provided there is sufficient post length, one should be able to not over-wrap the strings around the posts.

I've used friction pegs on lutes and on dulcimers. Anything that even looks like a friction peg reminds me of the anti-pleasures of using them. Not being too interested in a traditional look, the suggestion of a friction-peg planetary geared peg is a good one, but not one that interests me too much.

[redir]

Locking tuners seem like a good idea but of the few varieties I have used all of them had even smaller posts due to the locking mechanism so that might complicate it.

I wonder if 4:1 banjo pegs would work well?

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by redir

Locking tuners seem like a good idea but of the few varieties I have used all of them had even smaller posts due to the locking mechanism so that might complicate it.

Not so with the Gotoh offerings.

I wonder if 4:1 banjo pegs would work well?

Not for the accuracy of tuning required for classical playing. That'd be like going back to friction pegs: an exercise in frustration.

[ac]

These?



https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...ning-keys.html

[With maybe a bit of modification . . . .] Still, Rainsong found a clear solution somewhere. Must be someone who knows the answer.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by ac

These?

I've considered Schertlers before, particularly for 7 and 10 string instruments.

These, however, are designed for slotted heads.

Must be someone who knows the answer.

I'm still struggling with the question: Why do nylon string tuning machines have nylon - or similar - rollers? In the past, I've had some issues with the nylon sleeves over the metal shafts slipping on the shafts, misaligning the through holes in the roller/shaft. Not a big issue, easy to fix, but it does raise the question of why nylon string tuning machines all have nylon sleeves.

Is it to increase the diameter of the roller - so it takes more length of string wound over the roller - while not appreciably increasing weight - nylon is less heavy than steel?

[ac]

From the look of the housing on this Sperzel page, it sure looks like a match for the Rainsong tuners.
http://www.sperzel.com/housing-styles.php

That plus this statement from Sperzel shows they can customize and have made nylon string tuners before.

"Here at Sperzel we offer custom manufacturing services. We have made tuning keys for electric violins, nylon string tuning keys that mount thru the back of the head stock, and our unique design key allows us to produce different length spacers and worm shafts to extend out past contoured shape headstocks.

These are some of the special products we have been asked to produce for custom applications. Our tuning key design makes us more flexible for the custom builder."

It's possible that if they already have the know how and materials, they could produce a set for you also.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by ac

From the look of the housing on this Sperzel page, it sure looks like a match for the Rainsong tuners.

It sure does. Thanks for the info. Depending upon price, that might be the solution for which I'm looking.