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Old 07-12-2020, 06:24 PM
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Default New X7 nylon string guitar

Maybe. I'm thinking of the following, and would appreciate your thoughts.

An X7, nylon strung instrument, 1 3/4" nut width, short scale,active Barbera Pickup.

None of that is particularly new. Alistair and I have been through a 10, a 20, another 10, and two thin-bodied nylon string guitars. Those guitars have all reflected some new variables in CF instruments, and each has been a success.

But I have yet to play a CF nylon instrument that projects like a good wooden classical instrument. I believe that the problem is the rigidity of carbon fiber. CF seems to work particularly well with steel strings, but not so good with nylon strings. I think a new top needs to be designed.

I've an email to Emerald to see if Alistair is wiling to take on yet another challenge in his customized work. He may be too busy. He may jump on it.

If he jumped on it I would sell the acoustic 10 and the thin-bodied electric 10 and keep the thin-bodied 7 as a matching guitar.

In going for the thinnest possible face, I would forego the beautiful veneers and want a thin rather than thick finish.

In designing my Emerald guitars, forum members have been a big help. If you can add, subtract, divide, or multiply any aspects of the envisioned instrument please step up.
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Old 07-12-2020, 08:21 PM
ceciltguitar ceciltguitar is offline
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In regards to making the project appeal to Alistair: If he could succeed in developing a carbon fiber nylon string guitar that had incredible projection, good sustain, and a broad palette of tonal qualities, it would open up a whole new market of potential customers.
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Old 07-12-2020, 08:35 PM
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It’s got to have a bigger body than an X7 or an X10 to do what you want, ultimately - and a longer scale. No substitute for cubic inches, or horsepower.

There have been a couple of X20 nylon fan frets in recent shipping videos - the longer scale in the bass, coupled with a little bit extra in the middle could provide the extra drive to the top that you’re looking for. Unfortunately, there haven’t been any sound samples of those as yet.

And, in case I’ve lost sight of it in all the threads, ‘projection’ seems to be your ultimate goal here. Who’s the audience?
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Old 07-12-2020, 08:35 PM
esimms86 esimms86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Maybe. I'm thinking of the following, and would appreciate your thoughts.

An X7, nylon strung instrument, 1 3/4" nut width, short scale,active Barbera Pickup.

None of that is particularly new. Alistair and I have been through a 10, a 20, another 10, and two thin-bodied nylon string guitars. Those guitars have all reflected some new variables in CF instruments, and each has been a success.

But I have yet to play a CF nylon instrument that projects like a good wooden classical instrument. I believe that the problem is the rigidity of carbon fiber. CF seems to work particularly well with steel strings, but not so good with nylon strings. I think a new top needs to be designed.

I've an email to Emerald to see if Alistair is wiling to take on yet another challenge in his customized work. He may be too busy. He may jump on it.

If he jumped on it I would sell the acoustic 10 and the thin-bodied electric 10 and keep the thin-bodied 7 as a matching guitar.

In going for the thinnest possible face, I would forego the beautiful veneers and want a thin rather than thick finish.

In designing my Emerald guitars, forum members have been a big help. If you can add, subtract, divide, or multiply any aspects of the envisioned instrument please step up.
EvanB, I'm very much impressed with your willingness to keep on trying in your search for "the one." I know that you've previously stated that large bodied instruments are not your cup of tea. Nonetheless, I believe that Alistair has made at least one Kestrel with nylon strings. While I obviously don't expect you to be at all interested in a Kestrel, you may wish to discuss with Alistair the particulars of how that one turned out. It might(might) shed some light on a possible direction or directions for Alistair to choose in proceeding with your project(e.g., might he try for a mini archtop strung with nylons?). And, BTW, wood based archtop guitars with nylon strings do exist(I'm willing to bet that you already knew that...).

I also wonder if there is a carbon fiber top design that shares qualities with cedar...?
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Old 07-12-2020, 11:09 PM
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Elon Musk has proven that with enough persistence and resources, almost anything is possible.

Good luck and best wishes Evan on your search.
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Old 07-13-2020, 12:49 AM
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If Emerald made what you are describing; I would also be interested in an X7, nylon strung instrument, 1 3/4" nut width, short scale, W/O a pickup. Thin top and plain jane all the way.
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Old 07-13-2020, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Maybe. I'm thinking of the following, and would appreciate your thoughts.

An X7, nylon strung instrument, 1 3/4" nut width, short scale,active Barbera Pickup.

None of that is particularly new. Alistair and I have been through a 10, a 20, another 10, and two thin-bodied nylon string guitars. Those guitars have all reflected some new variables in CF instruments, and each has been a success.

But I have yet to play a CF nylon instrument that projects like a good wooden classical instrument. I believe that the problem is the rigidity of carbon fiber. CF seems to work particularly well with steel strings, but not so good with nylon strings. I think a new top needs to be designed.

I've an email to Emerald to see if Alistair is wiling to take on yet another challenge in his customized work. He may be too busy. He may jump on it.

If he jumped on it I would sell the acoustic 10 and the thin-bodied electric 10 and keep the thin-bodied 7 as a matching guitar.

In going for the thinnest possible face, I would forego the beautiful veneers and want a thin rather than thick finish.

In designing my Emerald guitars, forum members have been a big help. If you can add, subtract, divide, or multiply any aspects of the envisioned instrument please step up.
Your experimentation and ideas make for an interesting read. I do think you are on to something regarding the top. My younger brother builds high quality classical guitars. He built a steel string guitar early on in his building career. He told me once that to him, it is easier to get good tone and volume from a steel strings than from nylon strings because it takes a lot of experimentation to build the expertise needed to make a guitar top that nylon strings can move, while creating a good tone and avoiding wolf tones.

It may be that a completely different approach to a carbon fiber approach is needed for nylon strings to efficiently move the top. I have no idea what that approach would be, since I am not a builder. However, based on your posts so far, it does seem that you have not yet been satisfied with the resulting sound of the carbon fiber nylon string guitars you have had built.

It would seem to me that if Alistair were to embark on such a task, he would need to do it as a long term side project in which he would be trying some really wacky ideas that have not yet been thought of, to achieve what you are looking for. Doing it the way any carbon fiber builders have been doing it would likely yield the same results you have already been getting. For Emerald/Alistair, it would be an expensive (time and materials) R & D quest that may or may not yield the desired results in the end.

Tony
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Old 07-13-2020, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
In going for the thinnest possible face, I would forego the beautiful veneers and want a thin rather than thick finish.
I think the thinner top will bring you closer to your goal. A lighter top will give a punchier and more articulate sound.

IMO; The difficulty with nylon as opposed to steel, is the lower string tension transmits less energy into the body. The lack of traditional bracing in the carbon top should act in favour of nylons if well executed. It's really a game of shaping the sound whilst conserving the vibration energy! I think sound hole size/position also has a significant effect.

I look forward to seeing your journey

Simon!
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Old 07-13-2020, 09:46 AM
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The Madrid builders seem to have found a solution. That would be my starting point rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.

What do they do that's different enough to be a success a world that revolves around nylon string guitars? Long ago, they had strong motivation to work out a solution to this problem and apparently they were successful. Surely there is much to be learned from them, IMO.
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Old 07-13-2020, 09:48 AM
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Thank you all for the feedback. I have several responses.

First, I am not sure that volume is the key to projection. It's not an exact analogy but some 4 cylinder engines are hitting 300 HP without the displacement found in larger engines. More to the point, the thin bodied 7 & 10 Emeralds have a surprising projection with considerable less volume than found in larger guitars. I'm not sure what accounts for that or how that sound enhancement can be translated to a larger guitar.

Second, I realize that experimentation is expensive, but necessary if advancements are to be made. Alistair has never been afraid to try an idea, illustrated by the fact that his shop used to be lined with failures screwed to the ceiling. Nor am I afraid of failure; I subscribe to the Joplin notion that I just need to try a little harder.

Carbon fiber tops may not need bracing, but may require a thickness not particularly sensitive to nylon strings or short scales. Perhaps a thinner CF top with a spider-web of ultra thin CF bracing? Or another far-fetched possibility would to be a thinner top with tone posts, as with violins. Or maybe there are gradations of CF, some of which may be more sensitive to the subtle vibrations of nylon strings.

So yes. It's a challenge. Alistair has never been afraid of a challenge and I am willing to help subsidize the expedition.

Your comments are most welcome. Affirmations and denials are both valuable as we first scout carbonates pursue a novel form of guitar.
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Old 07-13-2020, 10:35 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Thank you all for the feedback. I have several responses.

First, I am not sure that volume is the key to projection. It's not an exact analogy but some 4 cylinder engines are hitting 300 HP without the displacement found in larger engines. More to the point, the thin bodied 7 & 10 Emeralds have a surprising projection with considerable less volume than found in larger guitars. I'm not sure what accounts for that or how that sound enhancement can be translated to a larger guitar.

Second, I realize that experimentation is expensive, but necessary if advancements are to be made. Alistair has never been afraid to try an idea, illustrated by the fact that his shop used to be lined with failures screwed to the ceiling. Nor am I afraid of failure; I subscribe to the Joplin notion that I just need to try a little harder.

Carbon fiber tops may not need bracing, but may require a thickness not particularly sensitive to nylon strings or short scales. Perhaps a thinner CF top with a spider-web of ultra thin CF bracing? Or another far-fetched possibility would to be a thinner top with tone posts, as with violins. Or maybe there are gradations of CF, some of which may be more sensitive to the subtle vibrations of nylon strings.

So yes. It's a challenge. Alistair has never been afraid of a challenge and I am willing to help subsidize the expedition.

Your comments are most welcome. Affirmations and denials are both valuable as we first scout carbonates pursue a novel form of guitar.
From my perspective, go for it as long as Alistair is willing and you are both able to work out an affordable cost for the venture. If something completely new comes out of this, it could be a game changer for Emerald, as I am reasonably sure that there are others around who would be interested in a serious contender for nylon strings in the carbon fiber world.

Tony
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Old 07-13-2020, 11:22 AM
ceciltguitar ceciltguitar is offline
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Since there are serious classical violinists and cellists who play carbon fiber instruments, it seems reasonable to imagine that at least some serious classical guitarists might be interested in a high-quality carbon fiber classical guitar.
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Old 07-13-2020, 03:05 PM
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The search is interesting and it's pretty obvious that it's a global hunt. Germany, Spain, China, America, even Ireland--everyone looking for that perfect durable nylon string guitar.

I don't know if Alistair will nibble on this possibility since he is incredibly busy pursuing a wide range of instruments. If he doesn't, I suppose I'll be able to limp along with the 10 acoustic and two thin-bodied electrics--woe is me.
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Old 07-13-2020, 04:01 PM
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If he doesn't, I suppose I'll be able to limp along with the 10 acoustic and two thin-bodied electrics--woe is me.
Your fortitude in the face of this trial should be an example to us all
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  #15  
Old 07-13-2020, 05:44 PM
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Composite tops are pretty stiff as is, and stronger/stiffer than wood at a given weight and thickness.

A soundboard made of, say, cedar has plenty of flexibility around the edges, but requires bracing across the center to make it stiff enough to act well as a sound-projecting "diaphram." Carbon fiber doesn't need bracing for that stiffness, as it is inherent, but I'm not aware of solutions for flexible resins in composites for the edges of instruments.

I would be examining the problem of stiffness around the edges of the soundboard. As illustrated by various cf nylon guitar builds, lack of flex at those edges dampen travel of the center parts of the soundboard, killing volume and projection.

As I partially noted in an earlier topic, the early Ovation Adamas guitars had a soundboard made of a 2mm balsa sheet sandwiched between two thin sheets of carbon fiber. It was extremely light and stiff. Rather than any attempt to make the edges less stiff and more flexible, Ovation instead mounted the stiff soundboard onto a flexible interface, like how a stiff, light-weight titanium diaphram is mounted on a flexible gasket in a high-efficiency speaker.

That "floating soundboard" design can be found in pianos and in certain hammered dulcimers. Many modern hammered dulcimer designs now use a torsion box design, but floating soundboard instruments are often much louder than fixed soundboard instruments.

The idea of a floating guitar top, held in place by string tension, is interesting, but since my needs have already been met, I don't have anything to gain by paying for such an area of research. However, I'll be following the topic with interest.

BTW, the demo for the Dlutowaki CF flamenco guitar is pretty amazing.



Given that the demo isn't of a close-mic'ed guitar, it sounds very loud.

It certainly seems like a decent buy for 1500€, as does the classical model for 1600€. If my priority was finding a loud CF nylon-strung guitar, I'd probably either just buy the flamenco model, or contact the company see if there are any current owners nearby, and then base any further searching on whether any further development hits the high-water mark demonstrated by that instrument.

Last edited by Explorer; 07-14-2020 at 09:32 AM. Reason: Fixed YouTube link
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