Schertler amps in the U.S. out of stock.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by tadol

That sub is exactly what I just ordered, thinking I could use it with my Jam, or with 1 or 2 S1s - can’t wait to see how it works!

They work great with the Jam...



And the BASS Sub with the Jam and the Side...

[lkingston]

In a PA system context, wouldn’t there be all sorts of phase issues if you had your own sub, then sent your signal to a PA system (which I assume would have it’s own subwoofer system)?

I thought that that was the main reason for the high pass switch on the Roy: so that the incredible amount of bass it produces on its own wouldn’t interfere with the PA system subs.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by lkingston

In a PA system context, wouldn’t there be all sorts of phase issues if you had your own sub, then sent your signal to a PA system (which I assume would have it’s own subwoofer system)?

I thought that that was the main reason for the high pass switch on the Roy: so that the incredible amount of bass it produces on its own wouldn’t interfere with the PA system subs.

I beleive with the schertler sub .Crossover is at 200 hz. With the sub being the first in line everything above 200hz is then sent to
Whatever speaker is after it.
Then if the di out of your amp/speaker goes
to a pa..its only 200hz and above.. Am I thinking
this right??

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I beleive with the schertler sub .Crossover is at 200 hz. With the sub being the first in line everything above 200hz is then sent to
Whatever speaker is after it.
Then if the di out of your amp/speaker goes
to a pa..its only 200hz and above.. Am I thinking
this right??

With the Jam and the Sub at big shows, I send the Jam's line out to the sub, and the it's full range DI to the house. When I'm playing really big shows, I don't really use a lot of the Jam or the sub, I just use it as a nice low volume full range monitor. I get my stage volume to where my guitar sounds best, and then I tell the sound man to come up on stage, listen to what my rig sounds like, and make it sound like that, but bigger, for the audience. I have never experienced any phase issues. And I typically don't sing through the Jam at big shows

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

With the Jam and the Sub at big shows, I send the Jam's line out to the sub, and the it's full range DI to the house. When I'm playing really big shows, I don't really use a lot of the Jam or the sub, I just use it as a nice low volume full range monitor. I get my stage volume to where my guitar sounds best, and then I tell the sound man to come up on stage, listen to what my rig sounds like, and make it sound like that, but bigger, for the audience. I have never experienced any phase issues. And I typically don't sing through the Jam at big shows

The phase issues would mostly be in the low frequencies. Here is an example: A few years ago I started doing sound at a mid/large church. They had a full sound system with a large subwoofer in front of (and below) the stage. The bass player also had a powerful bass amp with two stacked cabinets. This bass amp setup was maybe 30 feet away from the backstage wall. Thus, there was the stage right sub, the stage left sub, the bass amp, and the reflection of the bass amp off the back wall...in other words: all sorts of sub frequency sources. The end result was some incredible bass phase issues.

For those unfamiliar with big live PA sound, the way this situation typically manifests is that you have all sorts of nodes all over the room. This is especially true of sub frequencies where the wavelengths are proportional to the room. In places where the bass nodes reinforce, the bass will absolutely take your head off. Step a few feet to the left or right and you hear no bass at all. You have to experience it to believe it. These nodes jump around depending upon what note the bass player is playing. I remember walking around with the pastor during a rehearsal so that he could experience it firsthand and realize that I wasn’t exaggerating.

So, that would be my fear of producing a lot of my own bass onstage: that my bass would interact with the PA system subs and generate nodes that made the lows too loud in places, and not loud enough in others. That these would be interspersed throughout the room. This isn’t just theoretical talk. It can make the music difficult to listen to for good sized sections of the audience.

This is why the Roy has a dedicated high pass filter switch. This is why backline stage amps typically aren’t that big or powerful. This is why soundmen viscerally hate loud stage amps.

[lkingston]

Having said that, when you are supplying your own sound, an amp that produces lots of lows can sound magically good! I imagine that the Schertler Roy/Jam with a sub and no PA would sound incredible! Heck, the Roy just on it’s own with no sub sounds absolutely wonderful!

Another scenario where this would be a wonderful setup is if you were doing the typical 80’s bar band setup where just the vocals were going through the PA and the instruments were all just backline amplified.

[varmonter]

Ok I get it.two different bass sources
Hitting different nodes in the room.or hitting the same node a bit apart in time.

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Ok I get it.two different bass sources
Hitting different nodes in the room.or hitting the same node a bit apart in time.

It doesn’t even have to be two sources. It can be a beautiful bass speaker rig on a stage 39 feet or so from the back wall of the stage, with the lows bouncing back from that and creating nodes all over the place.

You have to walk around the room to experience it. Nobody believes how bad it actually is until they actually walk around and hear it.

As a soundman, I’ve talked to bass players who have spent years putting together their perfect rig: fine tuning it to sound wonderful and tried to tell them that while it might sound wonderful 10 feet in front of their amp, that that is where the magic ended. That their double cabinet of 12s was nowhere near as good as my ported and properly placed subs, and that their huge investment of time, money, and transporting their beast of an amp was actually hurting rather than enhancing their sound.

To make it work as a soundman, I have to highpass their instrument and let their stage sound carry the lows. Their lows will be incredibly wimpy, but at least they will be consistent around the room.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by lkingston

It doesn’t even have to be two sources. It can be a beautiful bass speaker rig on a stage 39 feet or so from the back wall of the stage, with the lows bouncing back from that and creating nodes all over the place.

You have to walk around the room to experience it. Nobody believes how bad it actually is until they actually walk around and hear it.

As a soundman, I’ve talked to bass players who have spent years putting together their perfect rig: fine tuning it to sound wonderful and tried to tell them that while it might sound wonderful 10 feet in front of their amp, that that is where the magic ended. That their double cabinet of 12s was nowhere near as good as my ported and properly placed subs, and that their huge investment of time, money, and transporting their beast of an amp was actually hurting rather than enhancing their sound.

To make it work as a soundman, I have to highpass their instrument and let their stage sound carry the lows. Their lows will be incredibly wimpy, but at least they will be consistent around the room.

I guess I've only heard this with loud rock bands
Or loudish acoustic bands in terrible rooms.
But I know what you mean.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by lkingston

The phase issues would mostly be in the low frequencies. Here is an example: A few years ago I started doing sound at a mid/large church. They had a full sound system with a large subwoofer in front of (and below) the stage. The bass player also had a powerful bass amp with two stacked cabinets. This bass amp setup was maybe 30 feet away from the backstage wall. Thus, there was the stage right sub, the stage left sub, the bass amp, and the reflection of the bass amp off the back wall...in other words: all sorts of sub frequency sources. The end result was some incredible bass phase issues.

For those unfamiliar with big live PA sound, the way this situation typically manifests is that you have all sorts of nodes all over the room. This is especially true of sub frequencies where the wavelengths are proportional to the room. In places where the bass nodes reinforce, the bass will absolutely take your head off. Step a few feet to the left or right and you hear no bass at all. You have to experience it to believe it. These nodes jump around depending upon what note the bass player is playing. I remember walking around with the pastor during a rehearsal so that he could experience it firsthand and realize that I wasn’t exaggerating.

So, that would be my fear of producing a lot of my own bass onstage: that my bass would interact with the PA system subs and generate nodes that made the lows too loud in places, and not loud enough in others. That these would be interspersed throughout the room. This isn’t just theoretical talk. It can make the music difficult to listen to for good sized sections of the audience.

This is why the Roy has a dedicated high pass filter switch. This is why backline stage amps typically aren’t that big or powerful. This is why soundmen viscerally hate loud stage amps.

Pretty lengthy description of phase problems, but frankly, if you would have read my post you would see that with proper use of the Roy, Unico, or Jam series with a sub, there would be no problems. And really, I never find myself using a sub with the Roy or Jam 400, it's just not needed. The only time I add reinforcement speakers to the JAM 400 (sub or additional PA powered cabs), is when I am running the entire sound myself. And lately in big concert settings, I have been choosing the Jam 200 more and more over the Jam 400, because I prefer the EQ in it (same as the Roy) over the Jam 400. And it's easier to lift the two smaller cabinets up onto the stage than the heavy JAM 400. And the JAM 200, like the Roy, has a variable DI out which helps it send a signal that isn't too hot for the preamps on the soundman's mixer.

The reason I use the sub with the Jam 200, is for what Schertler recommends it for, to let it do the heavy lifting and keep the smaller cab from rattling itself to death. I can see how you would have phase issues with the typical bass and a stack of amps, but the low end generated from the Schertler sub is at a higher frequency, and less amplitude, than a pair of bass cabinets.

Here's my original post, and notice what I said about volume...

With the Jam and the Sub at big shows, I send the Jam's line out to the sub, and the it's full range DI to the house. "When I'm playing really big shows, I don't really use a lot of the Jam or the sub, I just use it as a nice "low volume" full range monitor". I get my stage volume to where my guitar sounds best, and then I tell the sound man to come up on stage, listen to what my rig sounds like, and make it sound like that, but bigger, for the audience. I have never experienced any phase issues. And I typically don't sing through the Jam at big shows.

I should have said this, but I've run pro sound for a living, and when I say there were no phase issues I said it from experience. The setup I'm using is not set as loud as the typical monitor pro soundmen like to blow at your face in a concert setting, and unlike monitors, it's facing forward, instead of bouncing off of the back walls. And we are talking about a ten inch speaker in the sub, not a stack of bass amps.

The dedicated HP filter in the Roy, Jam 400, Unico, and Jam 200, is there for one reason. The purpose of it is to keep vibration from aggressive low end from tearing up your amp, and blowing those small drivers. Schertler recommends it for any instrument that has big low end. By using that high pass, and sending those frequencies to the sub, the vibration of bass frequencies won't rattle the electronics of your amp or possibly blow your speaker. I have been sending sound men a full range signal since I've been using these amps (7 years), and I make sure in my sound checks to make sure that signal that I'm giving the soundman and my stage volume works for what he needs to do. I've played in concerts setting for thousands of people with this rig and I have NEVER had any phase issues.

This is straight from the manual of the JAM 200...

5.3. LOW CUT
When engaged, this filter cuts all the frequencies below 180Hz. This function is ideal if you play an instrument that generates aggressively low frequencies, it enables you to connect a subwoofer and prevent unpleasant vibration and possible damage to your JAM.

BTW I think it's pretty impressive that I've got 7 years on a Schertler Jam 400 used hundreds of times a year, it's more than paid for itself

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Ok I get it.two different bass sources
Hitting different nodes in the room.or hitting the same node a bit apart in time.

Yes, that does happen, and IME, the worst phase issues come from people that run their stage monitors too hot, and have their monitor sounds bouncing off the back walls of the venue, with those sounds hitting the listener with a time delay.

But for the way you intend to use the Sub, you should be fine, for both little gigs and for concerts. The sub makes any little amp sound better, more full, without overtaking the sound coming from your amp. You just use the volume on the sub to match the volume from your amp. They are great sounding little subs, and they are not very heavy to carry around, as they are only 38lbs, and for sub that's a pretty good weight! Another great thing, with the right size pole, the pole mount really helps to put your acoustic amp at the perfect height!!!

Another thing, on your Elite Acoustic D6-8 MK II, you can EQ the output of your MIX Out XLR to be perfect for the SUB. That should make a great portable rig!!!

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Yes, that does happen, and IME, the worst phase issues come from people that run their stage monitors too hot, and have their monitor sounds bouncing off the back walls of the venue, with those sounds hitting the listener with a time delay.

But for the way you intend to use the Sub, you should be fine, for both little gigs and for concerts. The sub makes any little amp sound better, more full, without overtaking the sound coming from your amp. You just use the volume on the sub to match the volume from your amp. They are great sounding little subs, and they are not very heavy to carry around, as they are only 38lbs, and for sub that's a pretty good weight! Another great thing, with the right size pole, the pole mount really helps to put your acoustic amp at the perfect height!!!

Another thing, on your Elite Acoustic D6-8 MK II, you can EQ the output of your MIX Out XLR to be perfect for the SUB. That should make a great portable rig!!!

Yes beleive it or not I wrote to EAE years ago and asked them to put the full range EQ in the
Xlr out..I told them in larger venues it would be nice to use let's say a bigger qsc speaker but
the eq for the qsc speaker is different than the main mix of the smaller d68. They wrote back and said they had never thought of using the d68 that way..and they would include that feature in the next upgrade..(its just coding) which they did.
Nice small company eae..

[jaytee32]

Back to the original question, they may just not be able to ship stuff. I live in EU land and when I went to mail my taxes, the post office saw "USA" on the envelope and asked me if it contained "merchandise".

When I asked why she asked, she said that they weren't allowed to accept shipments of merchandise to the USA. This was a few months ago, no idea if it's the same now. Nor whether Switzerland has the same policy as the Netherlands.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Yes beleive it or not I wrote to EAE years ago and asked them to put the full range EQ in the
Xlr out..I told them in larger venues it would be nice to use let's say a bigger qsc speaker but
the eq for the qsc speaker is different than the main mix of the smaller d68. They wrote back and said they had never thought of using the d68 that way..and they would include that feature in the next upgrade..(its just coding) which they did.
Nice small company eae..

That is GREAT, because I can see that being very helpful!

[Woodstock School Of Music]

Originally Posted by jaytee32

Back to the original question, they may just not be able to ship stuff. I live in EU land and when I went to mail my taxes, the post office saw "USA" on the envelope and asked me if it contained "merchandise".

When I asked why she asked, she said that they weren't allowed to accept shipments of merchandise to the USA. This was a few months ago, no idea if it's the same now. Nor whether Switzerland has the same policy as the Netherlands.

jaytee32

Schertler is shipping to the US they just happen to be on a two week Holiday