Martin explicitly confirms: no more Ivoroid bindings

[drdcw]

In trying to spec a new top-level custom build with Grained Ivoroid binding (the same stuff on at least 20 of my present collection and that Martin has successfully used over the past century), the Martin Marquis dealer I was working with informed me "Martin is no longer doing Grained Ivoroid since when the wood moves/flexes the Ivoroid didn’t sit well causing lift and quality control issues."

Their QC issues regarding loose bindings have been well documented. Rather than solve the problem by returning to traditional adhesives or those universally available (such as CA that you can buy in gas stations and grocery stores), their insistence on using unspecified "modern adhesives" (their term, not mine) has resulted in the elimination of a component fundamental to most of their finest popular instruments that is still successfully used by other manufacturers to this day.

This also ignores the fact that their preferred alternative of Boltaron (a trademarked euphemism for vinyl plastic) is more problematic than Ivoroid, according to John Arnold and the late Frank Ford (two of the most highly regarded and esteemed luthiers ever).


This once again proves that the phrase "Martin Guitar Custom Shop" is as much of a self-contradictory term as "tap-dancing elephant". Fortunately, there are other luthiers from which to commission high quality custom instruments who can resolve problems rather than run away from them.

Pathetic.

[Bowie]

Yea, I don't see this as a fix. Many makers use ivoroid with no issues. It's like switching to offroad tires because you keep driving up on the curb. you're not actually fixing the problem.

We'll see though. Maybe there is some thing specific to their process that doesn't work well with celluloid. I don't see how going to plastic is better though.

[drdcw]

Their old process worked just fine.

[Stevien]

Originally Posted by drdcw

Their old process worked just fine.

You're kidding, right?
Steve

[drdcw]

FWIW, I didn't inquire about faux tortoise binding, but that's also a celluloid like Ivoroid. It may now also be off the menu.

[Stevien]

First of all, before everyone gets in a tight, this is just something a dealer said. Like getting news from the National Enquirer. Let's wait to hear something real. Talk is cheap.
Steve

[drdcw]

I'm not allowed to post links to relevant material, but you can read elsewhere that the real problems started with the switch to Boltaron in the '60 and was greatly exacerbated when they deviated from the previous glues around 2012. Binding separation was a much lesser problem back in the old days.

[drdcw]

Originally Posted by Stevien

First of all, before everyone gets in a tight, this is just something a dealer said. Like getting news from the National Enquirer. Let's wait to hear something real. Talk is cheap.
Steve

It was relayed to me directly from Martin in response to the first quote they provided. I changed Boltaron to Ivoroid in the specs and Martin responded to the dealer exactly what I quoted, so it's 100% real and direct from Nazareth.

[LAPlayer]

Then it is what it is, pick something available.

[Bowie]

It's clear some here are missing the point. Celluloid isn't inherently a problematic material so the reasoning behind this move is sketchy. Hopefully, they're doing other things along with this that will actually fix their binding issues.

[massimo]

Since this is the first - and very much welcomed - official move by Martin regarding the binding issue, I guess we must consider all Martins with ivoroid (and the other plastics?) binding built until now potentially at risk, despite alleged, unofficial claims by some that fixes had been made in the last years.

[nikpearson]

Originally Posted by Bowie

Yea, I don't see this as a fix. Many makers use ivoroid with no issues. It's like switching to offroad tires because you keep driving up on the curb. you're not actually fixing the problem.

We'll see though. Maybe there is some thing specific to their process that doesn't work well with celluloid. I don't see how going to plastic is better though.

This made me chuckle.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by massimo

Since this is the first - and very much welcomed - official move by Martin regarding the binding issue, I guess we must consider all Martins with ivoroid (and the other plastics?) binding built until now potentially at risk, despite alleged, unofficial claims by some that fixes had been made in the last years.

It’s actually been discussed for years that part of the problem is that celluloid shrinks, and if the glue isn’t strong enough to hold it in place, it can separate. Whether it’s happening in 2% of the guitars or 25% (or more) is the bigger debate.

I notice that the HD-28 says “antique white” for binding. I’m pretty sure it said “grained ivoroid” until recently. The recent switch to black plastic on the Style 18 guitars may be related. Ultimately this is a good thing if it solves the issue. I note that the D-28 Authentic 1937 still says “grained ivoroid”—I wonder if Martin will ever switch away from celluloid for the Authentics?

[FrankHS]

Originally Posted by massimo

Since this is the first - and very much welcomed - official move by Martin regarding the binding issue, I guess we must consider all Martins with ivoroid (and the other plastics?) binding built until now potentially at risk...,

Or maybe now "Pre-Boltaron Martin" becomes a thing for the connoisseurs.

[abn556]

I am still amazed that Martin stubbornly refuses to go to the obvious fix which is to go back to using the glue that works.