1st post: nut width / going from nylon to steel

[gtsone02]

Hi everyone. As you can tell, I’m a newbie here and am relatively new to the guitar. May not have figured out how to properly search the threads, so please forgive me if I’m bringing up something that’s already been discussed a lot.

Anyway, at age 40 I was gifted a Breedlove Discovery Concert (Bourbon Burst with nylon strings) and have spent the past year and a half trying to learn how to play it. However, I’m starting to develop a mild case of what I’ve recently learned is GAS.

I think the main driver is that I’d like to get a steel string acoustic. I do like the tone of the Breedlove as long as I’m playing pretty softly, but for lack of a better term, it just sounds off when played a little harder.

I’ve recently played a few other guitars...Yamaha (FG-75 I think) a Martin 000-17, and a Hummingbird Studio. Was kind of surprised about a few things. First, the neck profiles and nut width difference felt enormous. Compared to the Breedlove, they all kinda felt like little toys. The other thing was that the trebles on all the other guitars sounded extremely tinny.

Guess that’s a long way of getting to a few general questions. Is the tinny treble sound just my lack of experience combined with hearing/playing nothing but a nylon string guitar all the time? What is it like to transition from a wide nut/nylon string (1.89”) to what is apparently a more std 1.75 or smaller steel string? Will it be harder to adjust to the nut width or the steel strings?

Thanks y’all.

[Ramesses]

In the price range you mentioned the nut is going to be pretty much 1.72 across the board, less in some cases. An affordable guitar with a wide nut is made by seagull at 1.8". Just an fyi from a big hands guy.

[tonyo]

It's worth researching the nut width and the string width at the saddle. I started with a maton that had 1 11/16 nut width and found it hard to finger the chords.

A friend sold me his Epiphone and said it should be a lot easier, it sure was, not only was the nut width 1 3/4 inch, but at the saddle it was 5mm wider than other guitars.

I favour taylors for the wider nut width although I now have a yamaha (silent guitar) with the 1 11/16 nut and can play it fine.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, I wonder whether this might assist/inform !

I made this shortly after throat treatment so I hope you can understand my speech.



Sadly, Martin longer make their standard sized 12 fret guitars, but there re Collings in the higher price range and Eastman in the lower-mid.

This one might show you a couple of options :

[JERZEY]

Originally Posted by gtsone02

Guess that’s a long way of getting to a few general questions. Is the tinny treble sound just my lack of experience combined with hearing/playing nothing but a nylon string guitar all the time? What is it like to transition from a wide nut/nylon string (1.89”) to what is apparently a more std 1.75 or smaller steel string? Will it be harder to adjust to the nut width or the steel strings?

Thanks y’all.

Steel string guitars will sound more metallic for sure. Cheap steel string guitars tend to in my exp sound more so in the upper registers. If you install some high tension carbon strings on your nylon it would probably more closely resemble the tone you are talking about.

The hardest part will be conditioning your body to the higher tension on the steel strings for a bit but stick with it the rewards are worth it. Get ready for some new pads on your finger tips too. Getting used to the string spacing will take time but its usually not a major hurdle. It depends on the player and the time they put in of course but still should not be that big of a deal.

One fantastic result of being conditioned on a steel string acoustic is playing your nylon feels effortless. Its very rewarding.

Relating to the Breedlove you are playing. Its not known to be a good instrument. Typically its plugged in and does not have much tone/volume to speak of acoustically. If you get a chance check out the Taylor Academy 12-n and the Cordoba Fusion series. Much better examples of budget nylons. Sadly when it comes to Nylon guitars you end up having to spend a bit more to get a good playable instrument vs Steel strings. You can find 500$ steel string guitars that play and sound like 2-3k guitars pretty easily.

[musicman1951]

Yes, steel strings sound tinny compared with nylon - no getting around that. It's the nature of the beast.

I don't see many guitars with nuts wider than 1 3/4. String spacing matters at least as much. Avoid 1 11/16 guitars, of which there are many.

I came back to acoustic from many years playing classical guitar and adjusted fairly quickly to the 1 3/4 nut. Not in a day, but fairly quickly. Your guitar has a smaller nut than my classical, so I think you'll be fine. But do play a few and find a string spacing you like.

[mawmow]

So you began on a nylon with quite narrow nut width (usually 2" in fact).

You want to strum chords or play fingerstyle ?
You have long narrow or short large fingers ?

The largest nut width are generally 1,75" on steel orchestra models.
I found a notable exception : Gibson Keb'Mo 1,87" (a L-OO subtype) but the sound may not be for you.
1,75" nut witdth is quite standard on Taylors, but rare on regular Martins and Gibsons.

I would say I found Taylor Academy amazing for the price.

Talking about sound : I am quite sure no nylon sounds like no steel guitar.
I do play three nylons and none sound like any of my steel Taylors, Gibsons,
Martins, Larrivees, Guild or any other.

Each type, either steel or nylon, delivers its own sound, depending on inner
geometry (bracing), woods, body volume and type of strings used.

Tough one my feel dizzy in the middle of dozens of guitars in a brick and mortar
store, you have to concentrate on your personal needs to define the guitar that
would suit you the best.

[gtsone02]

Thanks everyone. If I'm too wordy with these posts, please tell me to keep it short...just trying to offer enough info to hopefully help y'all generate some words of wisdom

Silly Moustache, the videos you posted and a few others were very informative. Thank you.

To repsond to Mawmow's questions about my fingers and style...my fingers are short and fat. As an example, the open G7 is very tough for me on the Breedlove. Being that I've got 3 young kids and this is a hobby that I'm only 1.5 yrs into, I'm not far enough along in proficiency to have any sort of playing style or know exactly what I want in a guitar.

In general, the second guitar would be to make sure I have something to play/practice for the week or 2 it's taken the nylons to "settle" after a string change. I'd like that second guitar to be a well rounded steel string that I can explore and see where things go.

The music I enjoy most is traditional country, folk & bluegrass, so projecting forward I'd guess primarily strumming with a bit of fingerstyle and picking. I'm basically trying to build a core foundation, and then work on the specific techniques needed to play songs I like (The Cape by Guy Clark is on that list).

As for my original questions, it seems like:

1. I'll have to find a happy medium of some sort between the nut width, scale length and string spacing at the saddle? In my limited experimentation, I think I've found that a smaller nut/scale length makes the "reach" part of a chord easier, but it's harder to fit multiple fingers into the same fret (open A or the F-shape up the neck).

2. I'll have to find one where the high end doesn't sound overly harsh. The little Yamaha was piercing...the 000-17/Hummingbird Studio weren't nearly as bad. In fact, on open G, C and D strums, I noticed the high end more when I had the guitar in my lap as opposed to standing back and listening to the store associate play. Does that make sense?

[gtsone02]

Originally Posted by JERZEY

If you install some high tension carbon strings on your nylon it would probably more closely resemble the tone you are talking about.
...

The hardest part will be conditioning your body to the higher tension on the steel strings for a bit but stick with it the rewards are worth it. Get ready for some new pads on your finger tips too. Getting used to the string spacing will take time but its usually not a major hurdle. It depends on the player and the time they put in of course but still should not be that big of a deal.

When it's time for a change, I've got D'Addario EJ-44TTs I'm planning to put on the Breedlove (as opposed tho the std EJ44s that I've been using). Any idea what that might do to the sound?

My practice sessions are generally 15-30min per day...sometimes more when we're not running to kids' sports and such. I do typically play every day, but definitely don't put in 2+ hours per day. In that vein progress feels pretty slow (think I was about 3 months getting the F-chord). Do you think it would be a similar timeframe to adjust to a new guitar?

[KevinH]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not sure why, but many brands, in their lower-cost models, have 1-11/16" nuts. Eastman is one exception. You can get an Eastman E1OM for around $500, with a 1-3/4" nut. If you want to spend more Eastman has 00 models (and maybe others?) with 1-13/16" nuts.

If it were me, I'd look in the used market since you're still finding your way to what works best for you.

When I jumped back into guitar playing, after a 25 yr hiatus, I started with a nylon string guitar to ease my fingers back in. After 6 months, I sold the nylon and switched to steel string guitars. You'll be fine after a bit of adjustment to the narrower necks.

[Silly Moustache]

I'll rub this in - get youself to some dealer who is selling an Eastman e10=p or an Eastman E10-00

1 & 13/16" nut width as already said, very well built, and rather familiar body size for someone use to playing a gut strung.



and



Both of these have rosewood back and sides but the mahogany ones should be a little cheaper.

[peteathome]

As someone who has been playing (around) with guitars for the last 8 years or so, I have finally, finally decided that nut width is the key to playability for a guy like me.
I currently own 8 guitars. None expensive, mostly $500 range. I bought a new guitar online this summer. I've had it now for 5 months, and as much as I have tried to bond with it, the fact is that my wide finger pads do not work with the narrow nut of this guitar at all.
Someone mentioned Seagull, and if I were you, I'd have a look there first. I've owned an S6 Slim model that I sold because of the "Slim" nut. I'm going to try to trade my recently acquired guitar for either another Seagull, or a Martin D10E (1.75" nut).

[Misifus]

When I made that same transition, from nylon to steel, I was having a guitar; built for me, so I had the luxury of picking my nut width. My luthier made quite a selection available for me to try. Oddly, the 1-7/8” nut was too wide, even after the 2” nut on my classical. The 1-11/16” was flat too narrow, but the 1-3/4” was just right. That was in 2003, and here we are 17 years later, and that summary is still true, although these days I can manage a 1-11/16”.

[C-ville Brent]

I have a lower priced Seagull and agree they are very nice guitars - a little wider nuts than available on many brands, reasonably priced (relatively of course), and (mine) was very well made in Canada. I find it to have a somewhat unique but pleasant tone.

[SJ VanSandt]

You are aware that Guy Clark played nylon string guitars that he built himself? Maybe you should consider just getting a better nylon string for a second guitar. Solve the nut width problem, and the tinny trebles. On the other hand, if you ever want to play bluegrass, it's not going to do the job. Most flatpickers don't like a very wide nut at all - 1 3/4" is considered wide - and nylon strings are never going to cut through in jam. You can solve the tinny trebles by going for really high quality guitars ($$$$) or tame them to a certain extent by getting a cedar or mahogany topped guitar. But once again, those won't be very bluegrassy. Silly's short-scale 12 fret sounds like a sensible solution, if you can live without playing bluegrass breaks. If you can't live without that you are going to have to go for guitar #3.

Good luck on your search!

Stan