Would love to know your workflow.

[verstft]

Hello everybody,

I'm an Ableton live user who recently switched to Logic pro 9 due to it's amazing comping capabilities.

My main goal (big surprise) is to record solo fingerstyle acoustic tracks.
I'm familiar with the basics of recording and daw editing and certainly some will point out some great tutorials or threads in that regards.

Regardless of how many tutorials I watch, I seem to always run into a few different shortcomings along the way. Some of this stuff might be pretty basic but bare with me please.

1) Levels. Some great tutorials on how to dial the gain on your pre out there. Solo finger style is a bit trickier though since I have a light touch and the soft and loud parts can have a very large range. Shortcomings with my setup are that I usually raise the noise floor too much in order to get a strong signal from the guitar. If I get to close to the mic, I get a good level but I get more boominess. Too far, and my levels are low. Any tips for recording the quieter parts?

1) Click tracks, metronome. I find using a metronome for solo guitar tracks makes my performance very stiff. Do any solo instrumentalist not use a metronome when recording? what are the pros and cons of this.

2) Headphones monitoring. I use my headphones when dialing in mic placement. Do you keep monitoring the sound via headphone while actually recording the guitar part? What are the pros and cons of this.

3) Once I have a clean recording. Do you have an overall strategy get a good solo fingerstyle sound. Most tutorials, deal with strummed acoustic tracks and how to make them "cut" through the mix. Very few deal with having a good standalone, meaty solor guitar sound.

My current strategy is EQ --> Compression on the track only.
I then add reverb and a limiter on the master.


4)Does doubling a guitar make sense for fingerstyle? It's imposssible to play the timing exactly the same twice.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I feel establishing a proper workflow is key to the final product and I would love to have a good foundation.

I can upload a current track i'm working on as well, if some of you want to give me some pointers and lead me in the right direction.

Regards,

Vers

[rick-slo]

No right answers apply to everyone. So these are just a few thoughts on how I look at it:

1. Use 24 bit and peak down 12 decibels or so. Play with less dynamic range – no very loud or very quiet. Further distance from the mikes evens volume out some. You can volume envelop the recording in the DAW
2. Most people don't click track recording solo guitar – too stiff and not needed.
3. I have gone either way with headphones while recording and it does not seem to make much difference. I do use them for placing mikes prior to recording.
4. Post recording overall volume adjustment, volume envelope if needed, phase adjustment (R or L channel delay) if needed, equalization if needed (usually a high pass filter), reverb (I usually go fairly dry). Rarely use compression though you might, perhaps used more as a limiter.

[Doug Young]

Levels are pretty straight-forward, just be sure you don't clip on your loudest parts. Its ok to leave lots of headroom. It's hard to be "too quiet" with 24 bits.

Headphones? Nope. Maybe initially for rough setup. But to dial in a sound, you need to listen over speakers (unless your target audience will be listening in phones). Record, listen, move mics, record, listen, over and over (and over and over... :-) till you're happy.

Click? Not unless I plan to overdub or ask someone else to. Too stiff. Tho if you practice playing to a click, you'll improve over time. But it shouldn't be needed and a 100% locked in beat may not even be desirable for solo fingerstyle. It's not (usually) dance music.

For mixing, etc, this video might be useful. It walks thru what I did on one track I recorded, using Logic. Pretty typical for me, at least:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5kCVXyQDys

You might also find this video useful. It was done to accompany an article in Acoustic Guitar on recording a few months ago, and I think it goes over some of the things you're asking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNBRCam2YxQ

[Fruitloop]

I can't offer a great deal of advice as I'm still a padawan when it comes to solo acoustic (quite recently shifted over from my electric shredding and riffing).
One thing I do that gives it little more body is I double the track, as in copy/paste it (no re-recording). I then pan them about 50-75% left and right and just slightly nudge the other one out of sync. I don't know how it works in logic but in sonar I can choose to nudge the whole track.

Doubling the tracks also increases the overall volume naturally so no need to be too close to the mic.

[Dave Keir]

To try to answer your questions by the numbers:

1. You didn't say anything about your mic set up. That's key to your sound. If you are pointing a mic anywhere close the body that's going to invite boominess. Please come back with your mic(s) set up.

1. (again) I never use a metronome or click track. What's the point if you're not going to synchronise with a virtual instrument track or need something that a another musician says he / she needs. If you are going to add your own vox on top then I'm sure any variability in timing is not going to bother you!

2. Yes, I always use my headphones for monitoring.

3. That's a very general question. The key is get a good source recorded which is mostly predicated on a good sounding room - the bigger the better - and good mic(s) placement. When you have a good sounding track recorded then questions about EQ and compression - and reverb - are mostly about preference (if possible, these shouldn't be used to cure faults in the source recording). My own use of EQ, etc, is to enable my vocal to sit comfortably with the guitar.


i've never "doubled" a guitar - why?

I hope this helps. In summary, the most important things are the quality of playing, the quality of guitar, the quality of the room used for recording, and the placement of mics. The rest is enhancement - not cures for anything lacking in the foregoing.

Cheers!
Dave

[verstft]

Thanks for all the great responses. This is helping me bridge the gap between all the theory I've been soaking in with some real practical advice! Right now I'm just being a sponge and taking in as much as I can.

Its ok to leave lots of headroom. It's hard to be "too quiet" with 24 bits.

Yes, this was a major mistake I was making. Trying to get too high a level on the acoustic track.

Rarely use compression though you might, perhaps used more as a limiter.

Dynamics. That's the beauty of acoustic guitar right? I'll see if I can just apply a tiny bit of compression at the end...in the mastering instead of the mix.


You might also find this video useful. It was done to accompany an article in Acoustic Guitar on recording a few months ago, and I think it goes over some of the things you're asking about:

Thanks for the insight Doug. I've seen some of your reviews before. Love your playing! Is the stereo mount bracket DIY or is this something I can purchase.

You didn't say anything about your mic set up.
I'm a complete beginner when it comes to recording so most of my gear is understandably budget minded....at least I have good guitars...that's a start.

Here's what I'm using:

1x room with no sound proofing.
I record in the center of the room as far away as possible from my computer fan.

1x Audio Technica AT2020 condenser. I tend to get good results by aiming at neck joint or bridge. I usually tilt it up a bit to be somewhat off-axis. ( I have an SM57 as well for micing amps but it doesn't seem to do well with lo gain....more of a high gain mic)

I'm thinking of moving up to pair of matching pencil mikes, but I need to be budget minded.

I have entry level focusrite scarelett 2i2, which seems to have much better pre amps (quieter) than my older more expensive interface.

I'm running into Logic Pro using standard eq, compression plug in and Lexicon LXP Reverb.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by verstft

Thanks for the insight Doug. I've seen some of your reviews before. Love your playing! Is the stereo mount bracket DIY or is this something I can purchase.

I don't recall what I showed there, but I didn't build anything myself. There are lots of stereo mic mounts out there, ranging from very cheap to outrageously expensive. Not strictly needed tho - but you can probably get a cheap stereo mount for less than the cost of a 2nd mic stand!

Based on your description, I'd suggest trying to add a 2nd mic as one of the biggest quick and cheap improvements you can make. Stereo makes a huge difference in capturing the acoustic sound of a guitar. A 2nd AT2020 would be fine. You might also use the AT and SM57 together and see how that works (I'd use spaced pairs since they're not matched). Stereo micing is another learning curve, of course, but if you're trying to match what you hear from your favorite fingerstyle players, mono micing is pretty rare.

[Picking Moose]

Originally Posted by verstft

Hello everybody,

I'm an Ableton live user who recently switched to Logic pro 9 due to it's amazing comping capabilities.

My main goal (big surprise) is to record solo fingerstyle acoustic tracks.
I'm familiar with the basics of recording and daw editing and certainly some will point out some great tutorials or threads in that regards.

Regardless of how many tutorials I watch, I seem to always run into a few different shortcomings along the way. Some of this stuff might be pretty basic but bare with me please.

1) Levels...
1) Click tracks, metronome....
2) Headphones monitoring....
3) Once I have a clean recording....

My current strategy is EQ --> Compression on the track only.
I then add reverb and a limiter on the master.

I can upload a current track i'm working on as well, if some of you want to give me some pointers and lead me in the right direction.

Regards,

Vers

Others already replied about levels and click track.
I use headphones for monitoring, for mixing and for mastering too. I have a good set of cans (AKG K701) and the room is not sound-treated so even the best monitors would sound bad in here.

My issue is about the use of a compressor.
As with anything, when you use a tool there is a reason for useing it. So.. why do you use a compressor?
I can imagine you use the EQ to bring some clarity to the recording but what is the compressor for?

I love to hear your recordings

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Picking Moose

My issue is about the use of a compressor.
As with anything, when you use a tool there is a reason for useing it. So.. why do you use a compressor?
I can imagine you use the EQ to bring some clarity to the recording but what is the compressor for?

A compressor reduces the dynamic range. How and why that's useful varies. For example, you can apply it to a vocalist who isn't consistent in volume, so that it keeps the vocal front and center, and you don't lose words. Same thing with a bass drum or a snare. Compressing those allows you to have them basically be at max volume on every hit, good for dance music. Keeping the range limited on an overall track minimizes the differences in music to make them work better in poor playback situations. For example, if you listen to an orchestra piece that has a huge dynamic range in your car, you might find the quiet parts dropping below the level of road noise. So you turn up the radio, then blam! the loud parts blow you out of your seat. So most radio stations compress broadcasts pretty heavily, just so everything is consistently audible without you having to turn up and down the volume.

Why use it on solo acoustic fingerstyle? Mostly, you don't. Audible compression can be heard pretty easily on a guitar, and it doesn't sound good. You hear it on a lot of you tube videos with cheap cameras than have auto compression built in. But the mastering process often adds a little compression, even for guitar. It can just move the guitar a few inches forward, and smooth out and fatten the sound a bit. A little goes a *long* way. When I use it, I usually adjust it to where the compression meters aren't even moving, then I back off even more. Basically, it's just removing some very small transients and allowing the overall track to be a bit louder, since I can raise the overall level once those peaks have been knocked down.

[ryan_g]

4)Does doubling a guitar make sense for fingerstyle? It's imposssible to play the timing exactly the same twice.


Yes, it can make sense, but it doesn't work for every song. It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

If all you want to do is make the sound bigger, you can double the exact same recording to another track and give it some dded effects (delay, reverb, compression, etc.). Then you can pan each track a little left, right, or whatever sounds good.

If you want to add more depth, try playing and recording another take on a different track. You will notice a couple differences: another guitar can make your recording sound more "full" especially if you pan each guitar a little left and a little right in the mix (you don't need to go full left and full right; just play around with it). You may also find that the inconsistencies in the playing sound good. You may use a slightly different phrasing, rhythm, voicing, etc. that adds depth to your song.

I look at it like this: When I want a solo acoustic guitar sound, I record one guitar and leave it at that. When I want a bigger sound and some variation, I record a second guitar, sometimes with the same phrasing and voicing, other times with different phrasing and voicing. Each song calls for something different.

With recording, there is no right or wrong - just what sounds good. So experiment and let the song dictate which direction it wants to go.

[Doug Young]

Doubling's widely used on pop tunes, all but unheard of on finger style recordings. The only example I can think of is a few Phil Keaggy tunes, where he's already doing lots of other overdubs. Fine to give it a try of course, but what I suggest is choosing some reference recordings to use as a guide. What sound do you want to achieve? Then try to emulate it. Doubling is a very obvious sound, so you should easily know if your ideal sound was created that way.

[Fruitloop]

I think Rhandy Rhoads did quite a few overdubs on Dee. Can't remember now but it was more than 2 tracks, maybe 3-4?

[verstft]

I love to hear your recordings
What sound do you want to achieve?

I'm taking lessons with Simon Fox currently. I did a recording last night of The Fisherman so you could say that this is the sound I'm trying to achieve.

I recorded the at2020 at the 12th fret and the sm57 pointed toward the bridge.

Only thing added is an EQ to the guitar track running into a bus with a tad of reverb.
The output channel has an adaptive limiter on it to bring up the loudness a tad.

http://cl.ly/2e0Z2B0L1K3U

Here's my EQ and Channel Strips:
EQ
Channel Strip

There's an annoying paper tear sounds in some parts...I always get weird stuff like that...it's a bit frustrating sometimes not knowing what the source of those things are.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by verstft

I'm taking lessons with Simon Fox currently. I did a recording last night of The Fisherman so you could say that this is the sound I'm trying to achieve..

Cool, the great thing here is that you should be able to ask Simon how he achieves his sound. No guess-work involved! You can get it right from the source.

[ryan_g]

Originally Posted by verstft

I love to hear your recordings
What sound do you want to achieve?

I'm taking lessons with Simon Fox currently. I did a recording last night of The Fisherman so you could say that this is the sound I'm trying to achieve.

I recorded the at2020 at the 12th fret and the sm57 pointed toward the bridge.

Only thing added is an EQ to the guitar track running into a bus with a tad of reverb.
The output channel has an adaptive limiter on it to bring up the loudness a tad.

http://cl.ly/2e0Z2B0L1K3U

Here's my EQ and Channel Strips:
EQ
Channel Strip

There's an annoying paper tear sounds in some parts...I always get weird stuff like that...it's a bit frustrating sometimes not knowing what the source of those things are.

I like your sound. Very clean and clear.

This doesn't sound like the type of music you would double.

I agree with Doug's statement that doubling is usually used on pop/rock situations. But there are many guitarists who fingerpick in that style, so it all goes back to the sound you are looking for. Have fund experimenting!