Truss rod issue on brand new Guild

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by angelo_

I was mainly surprised by the fact that the turns I made on the truss rod had no effect on the relief of the neck. Since it's a double-action rod, there should be even more effects with less turns.

Anyway, I've contacted a very good local luthier. I'll ask him. If I have to, I'll send it back and get another.

It's a shame becasue I really liked it.

Have a look at a few videos on youtube showing double action truss rods. They are pretty industrial bits of metal kit. When you are trying to straighten a neck or, alternatively, add relief the rod acts on different parts of the neck. To straighten a neck, the rod pushes up on the fretboard in its middle and down at each end of the neck. To add relief the rod must push down on the middle of the neck and up at the ends. And then you have the effect of the strings pulling up on one end of the neck but not counter pushing in the middle of the neck. Truss rod channels are not always super tight (which is why you can have truss rod rattle if it is not "engaged").

If your truss rod has been engaged pushing up on the centre of the fretboard and down on the ends of the neck to hold a straight neck you can't expect that dialling off a half turn, as you have done, to add relief. If there is the slightest amount of room in the channel all you will have done is relaxed the rod, not necessarily engaged it in the other direction. When it does engage, particularly as your neck is presently perfectly straight then there is a good chance you will dial in relief and then the neck will keep moving over a day or so under string tension. So you will then re-engage the rod (so it is once again pushing up on the middle of the neck and down at the ends) to counteract the strings pull and dial in exactly the relief spacing you want.

Different necks will behave slightly differently and truss rods are not always dead straight (not engaged) when the neck is dead straight.

It is a bit of a fine art to set the correct relief for your strings and playing style whilst keeping the truss rod fully engaged.

[AZLiberty]

I have never owned a guitar with a dual-action rod, (that I know of).
All mine are old enough to be single-action rods.

But:

Everyone I know hates them and complains that there is often a large "dead spot" in the middle. Presumably due to backlash. Might give it another crank and see what happens,.

[TiffanyGuitar]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

Might give it another crank and see what happens,.

This sounds suspiciously like “hey y’all watch this” and then something breaks. Let someone look at it for you.

And you have already altered the guitar. If I was the retailer I would not take it back from you.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by angelo_

Guys, it's the fourth time I have to repeat myself...
The saddle was too high (6 mm) and the height of the strings from the top of the soundboard was also too high (1.4 cm).

No offense, but your comments dont answer the question, and frankly, show a lack of understanding as to guitar set up. From what you describe, no irreparable harm was done, and a knowledgable luthier or tech should be able to get you back in line. Good luck.

[TheGITM]

Originally Posted by dnf777

No offense, but your comments dont answer the question, and frankly, show a lack of understanding as to guitar set up. From what you describe, no irreparable harm was done, and a knowledgable luthier or tech should be able to get you back in line. Good luck.

I was thinking the same thing. If the neck is effectively straight and the string action is good, then saddle height and distance between the strings and soundboard are irrelevant. They are just part of the geometry of that particular guitar.

I've never heard of anyone arbitrarily determining that a saddle is too high based only on the saddle height, and not based on string action.

In addition, all acoustic guitar necks will give over time and the most common adjustment as the string action starts getting high is to shave the saddle to compensate. We do this as long as we can, then ultimately end up with a neck reset.

By unnecessarily shaving the saddle now, the life of the neck before a reset has been shortened.

Lastly, if I were to want a different saddle height I'd be inclined to get a new saddle and adjust it, saving the original in case I wanted to switch back.

With all that being said, your mileage may vary... and objects in the rearview mirror may be closer than they appear... etc etc...

[Fathand]

I would say if the action was right then the saddle was not too high. It may protrude from the bridge farther than the suggested optimum but that is determined largely by neck set angle.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by TheGITM

If the neck is effectively straight and the string action is good, then saddle height and distance between the strings and soundboard are irrelevant. They are just part of the geometry of that particular guitar....

Exactly. If the action is to your liking, but the strings are too far above the soundboard….the obvious solution is to raise the soundboard!

The non-sarcastic answer is that the neck set will determine your saddle height, and in turn, string height above the body. (A measurement Ive NEVER even made, except crudely with a straight edge when adjusting the neck set on a new build.

[JohnW63]

I have the same question as the last few posters.

The height of the saddle and the distance between the top of the guitar to the strings is meaningless, unless you have some pickup added to the top that needs to have the strings closer. Some guitar techno-geek might discuss the good and bad features of the break angle of the strings over the saddle, but that's getting pretty deep.

The the sting height over the fretboard is good and it plays well and sounds good, and it doesn't buzz up and down the fretboard, leave it alone.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by angelo_

Of course, I knew that the strings might start buzzing, and they did. That's why I worked on the truss rod, but to my surprise it had no effect on the relief of the neck. That's what surprised me and that's the reason I opened this thread.

I know that if I lower something, I'll have to raise something else, but the fact that a truss rod can't change the relief of a neck after over 1/2 of a turn, is pretty concerning to me. The rod might be broken, and I don't want it to be broken.

Got ya.. seems you know what you're lookin to do..
and yea, I'd be concerned too has anything changed over the last few days?

[nikpearson]

… but if the neck relief and action were good, as others have already said then this is down to the neck/body geometry of the instrument. It sounds like at the moment the neck is overset a little which then requires a high saddle projection and string height above the soundboard to dial in good playability.

Over time the neck will almost certainly pull forward and the bridge will rotate as a belly forms behind the bridge in the soundboard. That will then necessitate lowering the saddle to keep a good action. I had a similar issue with an Eastman 12 string which had about 5 mm saddle projection. Less than a year later and the saddle needed to come down to correct a rising action as the guitar settled. That extra saddle height then became a benefit.

The only potential downside I can see of high saddle projection / string height above soundboard is that the extra torque on the saddle could increase the chances of the top bellying, but then you’ve got the extra saddle height to lower over time.

My advice would be to get the truss rod checked out to make sure it does work and then put the relief and saddle back to how they were when you received the instrument. The geometry may not be perfect now but at some point in the relatively near future it will be and you’ll be glad the neck was a little overset.

[wright8732]

Originally Posted by angelo_

I bought a Guild D-120 online and it arrived the other day. It was all good.
Then I checked the saddle and it was pretty high (6 mm) while the action was just right, so I used some sandpaper on the saddle and lowered it to about 4.7 mm. I tuned it all up and there was some minor buzzing. I therefore checked the neck relief and it was basically straight, so I turned the truss rod (it's a double action) by about 1/4 of a turn: no difference. I added another 1/4 of a turn: still no difference. This was a about 5 hours ago and I just checked it again: still no relief.

What does this mean? I didn't feel anything weird while turning the truss rod, it just felt like any other truss rod I ever turned. The humidity where I live stays at 50-60% all year long.

Thanks

Hi I have a similar Issue with a brand new Guild D-140 Westerly, straight out of the box i was getting string buzz! so when looking down the neck i saw there is a kink on the fret board at around the 12th fret where the neck meets the body of the guitar.
when I adjusted the truss rod to give it more of a bow to clear the frets it only adjusts the neck from frets 1 to 12 as the truss rod bolt is way down from the sound hole which is why there a really long alan key included to reach the bolt.
To me as i have a background in engineering the design of the neck and truss rod is a complete error as it is hard to locate the nut with the really long alan key and it only adjusts the neck from frets 1 to 12 or another explanation is that the CNC machine that cuts the dovetail joint of neck that inserts into the body is at a slightly wrong angle which is causing the fret board to kink at the 12th fret. either way it creates a neck like a S curve, bowed from frets 1to 12 and a hump after that.
The only way i could get rid off the string buzz was to put shims under the already extremely high saddle but this causes the string action to be high at frets near the nut. not good at all.
my guess is they know about this problem so they lowered the price to get rid off the guitars to less experienced players who wont know much about string action height, truss rod or string buzz but i could be totally wrong.
the only way i can see this being resolved is to get the frets redressed by a guitar repair shop or stick in a higher saddle (the one in it is very high already) and fiddle with the truss rod until it clears the frets higher than the 12th but is not too high that the string action is too high near the nut. for a newly bought guitar though customers shouldn't have to go through all this just to get rid of string buzz.

ps. I hope this helps

[schoolie]

The truss rod isn't going to help with buzzing at the 12trh fret. Might make it worse. You need fret work.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by angelo_

Of course, I knew that the strings might start buzzing, and they did. That's why I worked on the truss rod, but to my surprise it had no effect on the relief of the neck. That's what surprised me and that's the reason I opened this thread.

I know that if I lower something, I'll have to raise something else, but the fact that a truss rod can't change the relief of a neck after over 1/2 of a turn, is pretty concerning to me. The rod might be broken, and I don't want it to be broken.

It takes more than a half turn on most double acting rods to go through the neutral plane. Adjusting a double acting rod is more about finding the neutral zone and then applying force from the rod to achieve the neck movement you're looking for. The amount of force is something you "feel" through experience hopefully, and not the amount of rotation of the adjustment.

You're doing the right thing by taking it to someone who is familiar with truss rod adjustments.

If you're dead-set on "6mm being too high" then you're looking at a whole other problem. If the string height is set for appropriate clearance over the frets and the saddle has too much exposure then the neck set is most likely off. I've seen new Martins with improperly set necks, so it can happen.

An expert opinion is a good thing to have, and it's not uncommon to see imports with slight "problems".

[Stillatthemill]

If your guitar has a “hump” where the neck meets the body it may be dried out. Try humidifying the guitar for a week or so and it may go away. As mentioned earlier, if the truss rod isn’t changing the relief then it may not be turned far enough. You could try Removing (or loosening) the strings, turning the truss rod back to where it was originally, use a straight edge to check relief, then adjust the rod as you did originally and see if it changes. If the rod is hard to turn at all I would stop and bring it in. If you look up Bryan Kimsey (excellent and well respected luthier who mainly works on Martins) on you tube he has excellent videos describing setups and how truss rods work. If you lowered the saddle too much it is not the end of the world. Buy a new one and learn how to properly set your guitar up. In the end it will be money well spent. Enjoy your new Guild and I hope this helps.

[phavriluk]

A truss rod can only have effect in the region of the neck that is amenable to bending, i.e., between the first and twelfth fret. The truss rod stops more or less at the twelfth fret, and there can't be any bending, anyway, past the region of a fingerboard's being glued to that inches-high heel of the neck. The mechanics are obvious.