Differences in Fretwire Hardness Between Brands?

[redir]

So what you are saying is I need to throw away all my fret wire

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Mischief

It's always interesting to hear different peoples results. Have you noticed a consistent change with whatever strings you are using since the Evo or do you think that certain strings react to the harder frets more than others? I wonder too if certain guitars are more sensitive to tonal change with harder frets then others.

Having said that are you happy with the Evo gold? Would you choose the same fretwire again if you had to do it all over? Finally the "punchier" tone, do you feel it's, slightly better, slightly worse or neither just different/ other?

Thanks for your insight. I imagine it could help getting first hand opinions if the OP decides to recommend the Evo.

Cheers

Hi, initially, the Evos went on my '99 Collings Ds2h (sitka/EIR) in late 2011, and it was the second re-fret, and I really didn't like the sound - it was "harsh" to my ears - sometimes it still is.

I told the chap that put them on (an excellent job) that I wouldn't use it again, but I just might. He uses Evo on all his (very fine) guitars.

I don't experiment much with strings - EJ17s are my thing, although at present it has Rotosound PBs on which are , in themselves, a tad more "punchy" than D'adds.

Collings are often said to be bright - I say they are just better balanced than, say, Martins - and so I think Evos would work excellently on more bass biased Martins.

[stormin1155]

The metal composition of nickel frets is 18% nickel, 80% copper, and 2% whatever across all brands that I am aware of, and I can't believe that the 2% of the "whatever" would make much difference. I DO know that playing style makes a big difference in how frets wear.

I had one customer that I did a fret level/recrown bring his guitar back in for some other servicing less than a year later, and he had already worn substantial grooves. Another customer brought me his 20 year old guitar for a first time fret level/recrown that had deep wear spots in the finish and pick guard, and he claimed he had played over 2,000 gigs with it, and had never had the frets worked on.

Some people play with a light touch, some with a heavy touch.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by stormin1155

The metal composition of nickel frets is 18% nickel, 80% copper, and 2% whatever across all brands that I am aware of, and I can't believe that the 2% of the "whatever" would make much difference. I DO know that playing style makes a big difference in how frets wear.

I had one customer that I did a fret level/recrown bring his guitar back in for some other servicing less than a year later, and he had already worn substantial grooves. Another customer brought me his 20 year old guitar for a first time fret level/recrown that had deep wear spots in the finish and pick guard, and he claimed he had played over 2,000 gigs with it, and had never had the frets worked on.

Some people play with a light touch, some with a heavy touch.

I have a flattop guitar I built in 1970 and it was my sole flattop guitar for decades. Fret wear on it was light even after all those years. New flattop guitars that I have purchased over the last ten to twelve years were getting fret divots within a year or so. Seem like NS fretwire from decades ago was more durable than what is out there today. Copper can be work hardened so perhaps was sometimes done in prior years.

[John Arnold]

Seem like NS fretwire from decades ago was more durable than what is out there today.

Martin supposedly specified 30% nickel for their NS fretwire back in the 1930's. This includes both bar frets and tee frets. I am convinced that is the key to the wear resistance of the older wire. It is not the hardness. In most cases, the older wire is very soft and easily bent.

Maybe Jescar could chime in on this.

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by stormin1155

I DO know that playing style makes a big difference in how frets wear.

Some people play with a light touch, some with a heavy touch.

I dressed frets about seven years ago for a local musician, a petite gal with delicate looking hands. I looked at her guitar a few months ago. It's her only guitar and she gigs and tours constantly, so I assumed her frets would look shredded, but they looked almost like they did right after I dressed them. Comparing her to the customer I mentioned in the OP, who's a big guy with big hands who has several guitars, and he wears out his frets quickly, it's obviously not a coincidence - his hands are at least twice as massive as hers.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato

I dressed frets about seven year for a local musician, a petite gal with delicate looking hands. I looked at her guitar a few months ago. It's her only guitar and she gigs and tours constantly, so I assumed her frets would look shredded, but they looked almost like they did right after I dressed them. Comparing her to the customer I mentioned in the OP, who's a big guy with big hands who has several guitars, and he wears out his frets quickly, it's obviously not a coincidence - his hands are at least twice as massive as hers.

I remember one of my customers through a music store many years ago came back into the shop all angry about a year after I did a partial cowboy chord fret replacement job accusing me of using cheap frets, like I was saving a fortune on 5 frets

But he had worn right through the frets in one year. I'd never seen anything like that, I'd hate to shake the guy's hand because he's probably break it.

[Jescar]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Martin supposedly specified 30% nickel for their NS fretwire back in the 1930's. This includes both bar frets and tee frets. I am convinced that is the key to the wear resistance of the older wire. It is not the hardness. In most cases, the older wire is very soft and easily bent.

Maybe Jescar could chime in on this.

I am not aware of the exact composition of fret wire material used by Martin in the 1930's, nor other manufacturers at that time. If it was in fact 30% nickel then I would imagine that the wire could have been quite hard and difficult to work. The higher percentages of nickel in copper alloys would be Monel types which are not practical for guitar fret wire.

Just from personal experience my 1970 Martin that I purchase new was played extensively and did not require any fret work until 4 years ago, and that was only for reducing the fingerboard relief through compression fretting. However my 1995 Taylor was played infrequently and required a complete refret two years later and now has stainless steel which have been showing zero wear and did not alter the tone to my ears at all.

There are many factors that will affect wear; playing style, fret material and hardness, chemistry of the players hands, etc. With that said a hard NS18% will last longer than soft NS18% and other alloy such as EVO or stainless steel will provide much longer fret life for the player.

Jeff

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by stormin1155

I can't believe that the 2% of the "whatever" would make much difference.

~~0.25% Carbon makes iron into steel... If I ever own a guitar long enough to refret I'm going to try stainless!

[John Arnold]

If it was in fact 30% nickel then I would imagine that the wire could have been quite hard and difficult to work.

As I said, the old wire is quite soft and malleable. I need an analysis, or reliable information from someone who has already done it.

IMHO, it is superior to any new wire I have ever used. More durable, and much easier to work.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by stormin1155

The metal composition of nickel frets is 18% nickel, 80% copper, and 2% whatever across all brands that I am aware of, and I can't believe that the 2% of the "whatever" would make much difference.

To clarify, accepted industry terminology.

Brass is simply copper with a bit of zinc
Cupronickel is simply copper with a bit of nickel and trace bits of other stuff
Nickel silver aka German silver is simply copper with zinc and nickel.

I hear people say, the nickel silver fret is 80 percent copper 18percent nickel and 2 percent of other stuff, but if that is the composition then the fret is not pursay a nickel silver fret but in fact a cupronickel fret, for info, that is a very soft fret.

For the composition to be a nickel silver fret, it would have approx 60 percent copper, 20 percent zinc, 18 percent nickel and 2 percent of proprietary alloys.

It was rumoured years ago Martin had 30 percent nickel in the mix, but I have no way of knowing if that's true or simply internet whispers, I do warranty Martin repair work and have asked, but alas I think this info (truth) maybe lost.

Steve

[John Arnold]

It was spelled out.
In recently found correspondence from the 1930's, Martin asked their supplier to continue the same specification that they preferred, which was 30 percent nickel. The implication was that they had used it for many years in their bar frets, and wanted it used for their tee frets. The durability of both seems to indicate that it was in fact what they used.

I researched 30% nickel-silver alloys when I first heard that Martin had used it. It is a bit hard to find, but it is available.

[murrmac123]

I deal all the time with a company in the UK who have just recently installed a super-duper high tech analysing machine which will determine the percentage of every element within any metallic sample.

I contacted the CEO to determine whether they were offering a service with this machine, or whether it was purely for in house product testing, and he replied that at this point they hadn't determined the end-usage, but he said that if I had a sample requiring testing, then they would do it for free, and would quote me for any subsequent tests, based upon the time it took to do the analysis.

As it happens, I don't have any samples of any metal which require testing, but if any luthier out there has a sample of fretwire which they would like tested, then get in touch by PM and I will organize it for you ... free of charge. You would of course need to send a sample of the wire to me here in the UK.

I can only do this once, or at least do it free only once ... what any subsequent charges would be I have no idea.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato

Interesting. I've done lots of fret jobs with Stew Mac wire. Has anyone else noticed this?.

If it is of interest, I can hardness test a piece of stewmac wire for reference today.

I am refretting a guitar with dunlops today and another with standard stewmac frets

Steve

[John Arnold]

I mostly use Stew Mac wire, and I find it to be very consistent. I would judge the hardness as medium.