Keeping your left thumb behind the neck

[Birdbrain]

A couple of years ago I was fortunate to attend the world premiere of "Road to the Sun," a 30-minute piece for four classical guitars written by Pat Metheny. In comments before the performance, Pat told of how he approached the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet with an unusual request. Largely self-taught, Metheny often wraps his thumb to fret the E string. Pat asked them, paraphrased, I know it's unusual for you classical guys to do that, but would you consider it just this once?

There was a pause, and then the LAGQ's answer was, "No, we won't."

Despite that artistic dilemma, the piece sounds great and was just released- check it out!

[nightchef]

Originally Posted by JonPR

As for 332210, I've never had cause to play such a chord, but I just checked and found I can do it by barring fret 2 with my middle - with the tip of the finger behind the pinky on 5th string, it bends back enough to avoid the 2nd string.

Yeah, I’ve never had cause to play it either — it was a brain-cramp misspelling for 302210 (i.e., just a regular open A minor with the thumb on the 3rd fret 6th string).

Thumb on 6th would only be used for D/F#: 200232 - and that's a common shape, easily played by most people.

That’s about 99% of my 6th-string thumb wraps right there. The other 1 percent are for the “Pinball Wizard” chord (sus4 chord where the thumb is needed to damp the 5th string), which I can barely manage even on a guitar with an ideal neck, and the first position F chord where the bottom A needs to ring (not a great voicing, but it has its uses, e.g. John Lennon’s F add9 on “Hard Day’s Night”).

[Nymuso]

I don’t think about where my thumb is, it goes where needed, as needed responding to the needs of my fingerings. If my frontal lobe tries to intervene it can mess everything up.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

at all times for a typical right hand player...

My apologies if this has already been covered, but I don't see a search window here to determine that. If it has been covered, and you can direct me to the thread to prevent redundancy, that would be fine.

Otherwise if you keep you thumb behind the fretboard as a strict habit from the get go as a beginner, will it make you a better more accurate guitar player in the long run? Obviously a lot of great guitarists have no qualms about exposing their thumb are using it to fret chords. OTOH an instructor I had was dead set against it, and of course classical purists frown on not keeping the left thumb behind the neck.

And of course using the thumb for fretting on the sixth string with some chords is not uncommon among a lot of players. E.g. the D chord with an F # on the second fret 6th string, the Am chord with a G on the third fret sixth string, and the C chord adding a G on on third fret 6th string.

Or is this another one of those deals where it's simply up to the player and whether it's an advantage is controversial? Other then possibly more leverage on some chords directly behind the chord I wonder if there really is an advantage? Maybe classical purists don't like to see mother thumb hanging out with her four daughters?

Thoughts?

Cecil,
the concept of the thumb pressing against the back of the neck is a primarily classical style one.

When the guitar industry fundamentally changed the design of guitars to 14 fretters with skinny necks this kinda went out the window.

It is always helpful/necessary when a barre chord is necessary, but there are always alternatives.

I also teach, and find that some have difficulties in making a full F major chord when playing in the key of C, and this is how I help them:



https://youtu.be/aXHa4jb3T70

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Nymuso

I don’t think about where my thumb is, it goes where needed, as needed responding to the needs of my fingerings. If my frontal lobe tries to intervene it can mess everything up.

Right!
But that's because all the positions have become subconscious by now - whether they're the optimum ones, or less-than-optimum ones you've just got used to working around. (I have plenty of the latter myself )

[pegleghowell]

I`m not classically trained and am primarily a thumb over player.however,for some chords and stretches I do use the thumb in back of the neck style..there`s a use for both.

[nightchef]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Cecil,
the concept of the thumb pressing against the back of the neck is a primarily classical style one.

When the guitar industry fundamentally changed the design of guitars to 14 fretters with skinny necks this kinda went out the window.

It is always helpful/necessary when a barre chord is necessary, but there are always alternatives.

I also teach, and find that some have difficulties in making a full F major chord when playing in the key of C, and this is how I help them:



https://youtu.be/aXHa4jb3T70

It's funny how we're all built differently. I can't do the F the way you're demonstrating -- with my third finger on the 5th string/3rd fret for the low C, I can't do both the thumb wrap and the index finger double-stop cleanly. One or the other has to give. I'm just a bit too short-fingered (though hopefully not a vulgarian!) for this move.

On the other hand, I find the full F super easy as a barre. I've never quite understood why people go to such lengths to avoid barre chords, but that's probably just how my hands are built.

[ljguitar]

I've never quite understood why people go to such lengths to avoid barre chords, but that's probably just how my hands are built.

Hi night-chef
I taught intermediate and advanced fingerstyle for 40 years, and I think it's three things.

• 1- Improper setup on their guitar
• 2- Other Players tell them it's going to be hard.
• 3- They've never had anyone explain barres in detail and show them, and coach them into the realm of barre chords…or anything North of the 5th fret.

My beginners went home after lesson 3 fretting the standard E chord with fingers 3-4-5, and playing it three positions - open, frets 6/7 and frets 8/9. They were using them as a I, IV, V chords for nursery rhymes & simple songs starting that week. If they got curious I gave them an open version for the ii & iii chords as well. They still played proper E chords (standard fingering) as well.

The next lesson they learned to reach over with the first finger and fret the bass note on frets 5 & 7 for the A & B chords. And we just used them that way for a few weeks.

When it was time to start teaching them proper barre chords, the only thing missing was the barre, and none of them struggled with it.

You don't know how many intermediate students (who were still avoiding barre chords) I taught that way too. And when the barriers were removed (mental and setup), they were up and running.

[nightchef]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi night-chef
I taught intermediate and advanced fingerstyle for 40 years, and I think it's three things.

• 1- Improper setup on their guitar
• 2- Other Players tell them it's going to be hard.
• 3- They've never had anyone explain barres in detail and show them, and coach them into the realm of barre chords…or anything North of the 5th fret.

My beginners went home after lesson 3 fretting the standard E chord with fingers 3-4-5, and playing it three positions - open, frets 6//7 and frets 8/9. They were using them as a I, IV, V chords for nursery rhymes & simple songs starting that week. If they got curious I gave them an open version for the ii & iii chords as well. They still played proper E chords (standard fingering) as well.

The next lesson they learned to reach over with the first finger and fret the bass note on frets 5 & 7 for the A & B chords. And we just used them that way for a few weeks.

When it was time to start teaching them proper barre chords, the only thing missing was the barre, and none of them struggled with it.

You don't know how many intermediate students (who were still avoiding barre chords) I taught that way too. And when the barriers were removed (mental and setup), they were up and running.

That's a great approach!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by nightchef

It's funny how we're all built differently. I can't do the F the way you're demonstrating -- with my third finger on the 5th string/3rd fret for the low C, I can't do both the thumb wrap and the index finger double-stop cleanly. One or the other has to give. I'm just a bit too short-fingered (though hopefully not a vulgarian!) for this move.

When I use that fingering, I often mute the 6th and 1st - i.e., no need to fully fret both of them. The middle 4 are quite enough for the chord, especially if strumming in the middle of a progression in C.
It would be different for fingerstyle, obviously, if the outer strings were required!
One advantage of this shape is that it allows embellishments with the open string 3rd or 4th string, hammering on to the chord tones.

Originally Posted by nightchef

On the other hand, I find the full F super easy as a barre. I've never quite understood why people go to such lengths to avoid barre chords, but that's probably just how my hands are built.

Right. It does sound like your hands are quite unusual. Most people - at least as beginners - have serious trouble with the F barre.
Personally I'm fine with the barre (as with the above full shape with thumb on 6), but - and I remember it even now, 55 years later - it took me a while. My biggest ambition as a guitarist back then wasn't to be rich or famous, or be as virtuosic as my guitar heroes - or even to get the chicks! - it was to be able to play F. I thought, once I can play F, I'll have cracked it!

[nightchef]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Personally I'm fine with the barre (as with the above full shape with thumb on 6), but - and I remember it even now, 55 years later - it took me a while. My biggest ambition as a guitarist back then wasn't to be rich or famous, or be as virtuosic as my guitar heroes - or even to get the chicks! - it was to be able to play F. I thought, once I can play F, I'll have cracked it!

Don't get me wrong, it definitely took me a while too! The hand muscles have to be trained to do that comfortably, for sure. But you only have to get over that hump once, and then stay in practice.

I can see how you might prefer a non-barre F if you're alternating quickly between F and C -- but in that situation, as you point out, it usually works to play less than the full 6 strings anyway.

[jansch101]

Hmmm then of course we have dear Richie Havens style!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SJYG-htzEA

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by jansch101

Hmmm then of course we have dear Richie Havens style!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SJYG-htzEA

Well Richie is clearly from an alternate universe, so he does't count

With my small hands short thumb and level of abuse for 6 decades, and the arthritis .... I can sort of mute with my thumb but can barely fret a couple notes on the high E and B with my other fingers ,,,so ya basically side or back of neck is it .....Period

[Cecil6243]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Cecil,
the concept of the thumb pressing against the back of the neck is a primarily classical style one.

When the guitar industry fundamentally changed the design of guitars to 14 fretters with skinny necks this kinda went out the window.

It is always helpful/necessary when a barre chord is necessary, but there are always alternatives.

I also teach, and find that some have difficulties in making a full F major chord when playing in the key of C, and this is how I help them:



https://youtu.be/aXHa4jb3T70

Funny you bring up the difficulty for some to play the F chord. Years ago I played guitar in church choir and one of the guys had really a expensive Martin, something I couldn't afford at the time. Anyway we decided to add a new song to our repertoire, and his comment was, "I can't play that song." I asked, "why not?" He replied, "I can't play the F chord so I avoid songs with an F chord." I still shake my head when I think of it.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

Funny you bring up the difficulty for some to play the F chord. Years ago I played guitar in church choir and one of the guys had really a expensive Martin, something I couldn't afford at the time. Anyway we decided to add a new song to our repertoire, and his comment was, "I can't play that song." I asked, "why not?" He replied, "I can't play the F chord so I avoid songs with an F chord." I still shake my head when I think of it.

I know the feeling! I've occasionally had students who could afford way better guitars than I could. I just have to accept that their jobs pay more than guitar teaching does... - but I still can't help that feeling of outraged envy.

A friend of mine has a whole collection of Martins - he can play F, mind you (!), but his skills are some way behind mine (as I know he would recognise).

My problem was always thinking - for years - that I didn't "deserve" something like a Martin. Despite years of gigging, I was still an "amateur", I had a day job, earning my living in other ways. I felt I couldn't justify owning a "professional" guitar, even though I could (just about) have afforded it.
It took me a while to realise that it's not about "professionalism", its just about taking the activity seriously: to use an instrument that matches the level of one's love for the activity, not the amount of remuneration one might get from it. After all, an expensive guitar will always hold (or even increase) its value, in a way a cheap one won't, so - from the cold financial view point - it's an investment.
Also, the first serious guitar I bought (a Guild F30, 8 years after I began playing) showed me how silly it had been to put it off. Playing a cheap (badly made) guitar was a kind of false economy.
Now I always encourage students to buy the best guitar they can afford, not to think they have to start cheap - because a well-made guitar will make you want to play more. A cheap one may be harder to play and it won't sound as good - it might put you off the whole idea; plus it won't hold its value so well. A good guitar is a win-win.

So what is really annoying are the kind of people like the guy you mention - who own an instrument that is way above their love for (or commitment to) music. To deserve a Martin, you need to love playing so much that the F chord is a mere blip on your journey - an exciting challenge, not a brick wall.

BTW, I still don't own a Martin - but I do now have a very nice Yamaha LL-11 and (since just a few weeks ago) a Cordoba C9 classical. I nearly deserve a Martin.