The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Archtops

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 07-28-2020, 04:40 PM
rchrugg rchrugg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Default 1946 Epiphone Zenith - What to do?

HI Everyone, I have inherited a 1946 Epiphone Zenith acoustic guitar. The guitar seems structurally sound but has been PLAYED quite a bit over its lifespan. The tuning peg plastic knobs are crumbling. One has nothing left on it. Frankly, I am not sure if I want to keep and play, want to fix and sell or just want to sell at this point. If I were to fix/play, fix/sell, I would like for it to have parts that belong. It's also missing a pick guard, which I think was removed at some point. Any advice would be most welcomed. Does anyone happen to know sites where parts are available and possibly guitar people in the northern NJ/ NYC are that specialize in these old guitars?
Thanks in advance for your help
Rich

https://drive.google.com/file/d/104T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FTS...ew?usp=sharing
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-28-2020, 05:54 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Staten Island, NY - for now
Posts: 14,985
Default

Personally, I'd restore and play - you're not going to find anything built to that level of quality, with that kind of tone (New York Epiphones were justly renowned for their cutting power, the ability to be heard through a full-tilt horn section without amplification - I'm the former owner of a '46 Epi Blackstone, and I've played plenty of originals in my lifetime, so i can vouch for their volume potential), for what it'll cost to bring this puppy back to playing form. As far as parts are concerned, I'd start with StewMac for hardware (tuners, tailpiece - that's a replacement FYI - both of which have been reissued TMK) and archtop.com for a duplicate pickguard; another source might be Lark Street Music in Teaneck, who - along with Raritan Bay Guitar Repair on Route 9 in Freehold - would also be my first points of contact for repair/restoration...

Let us know how it goes...
__________________
"Mistaking silence for weakness and contempt for fear is the final, fatal error of a fool"
- Sicilian proverb (paraphrased)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-28-2020, 07:00 PM
Bob from Brooklyn Bob from Brooklyn is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hamilton Square, NJ
Posts: 4,090
Default

Here's someone playing a 1944 Zenith. Might be worth it.

__________________
Martin D18
Gibson J45
Martin 00015sm
Gibson J200
Furch MC Yellow Gc-CR SPA
Guild G212
Eastman E2OM-CD
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-28-2020, 07:50 PM
DCCougar DCCougar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 2,941
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rchrugg View Post
HI Everyone, I have inherited a 1946 Epiphone Zenith acoustic guitar. The guitar seems structurally sound but has been PLAYED quite a bit over its lifespan. The tuning peg plastic knobs are crumbling. One has nothing left on it. Frankly, I am not sure if I want to keep and play, want to fix and sell or just want to sell at this point.
My dad had and played the hell out of a 1939 Zenith that I absconded with when I got him a Gibson Les Paul studio. I had it professionally setup, but compared to more current flattop builds, it still sounded like crap. The only thing it's got going for it is that it's "vintage." But it's collectibility rating is "D-".

Fixing the tuning knob(s) would be a cheap fix. Get something that at least looks original. Then try to sell it. It's really not worth much, but you might get lucky with someone who's seriously into vintage archtops. The sound coming out of newer acoustics is really in a different league than these old thin-sounding laminate archtop Epiphone Zeniths. Sorry for the harsh opinion, but there it is.
__________________

2018 Guild F-512 Sunburst -- 2007 Guild F412 Ice Tea burst
2002 Guild JF30-12 Whiskeyburst -- 2011 Guild F-50R Sunburst
2011 Guild GAD D125-12 NT -- 
1972 Epiphone FT-160 12-string
2012 Epiphone Dot CH
 -- 2010 Epiphone Les Paul Standard trans amber 

2013 Yamaha Motif XS7

Cougar's Soundcloud page
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-29-2020, 12:38 AM
stevo58 stevo58 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 203
Default

That’s a carved-top guitar from one of the top builders. It’s not ‘crap.’ If you expect a carved-top, parallel-braced archtop to sound like an x-braced flat top you’ll be disappointed every time. That’s not what they are about. They are about chunking our rhythm in the middle of a horn section and being heard without amplification. It will be mid-heavy and there won’t be much sustain.

If the tuners work, order new buttons from Stew-Mac rather than new tuners. It’s easy enough to remove the old buttons and install new.

I would fix it up and play it, but I love that sound. I use an archtop often on Dan Hicks tunes and similar, and would love to have your Epiphone rather than my Loar 700.

The tailpiece is a replacement, but so what?

Paul Fox can make you a pickguard.

More info: http://www.epiphonewiki.org/index/Ze...ic_Archtop.php


If you are going to sell it, just sell it and let the buyer fix it up. It doesn’t need much (assuming the braces are ok).

Steven
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-29-2020, 06:42 AM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Staten Island, NY - for now
Posts: 14,985
Default

Some thoughts for those who may not fully understand what authentic vintage archtoos are all about:
  1. They're a breed unto themselves, typically more finicky than a flattop guitar, and IME many techs whom I'd trust with a dead-mint '60 Les Paul or '54 Strat don't know squat about what makes these puppies bark - FYI some violin-family luthiers also set up carved-top archtops (the basic construction and tone production principles are similar enough), and it might be worth nosing around among the local classical musicians and bluegrass fiddlers to locate one who does;
  2. The old-time stuff was designed around heavier-gauge strings than most players would be comfortable with today - 14-60 or 15-62/64 (often with a wound B) were standard - you need that kind of energy to get the top vibrating as it should, and you're not going to get it with anything lighter than a 13-56 set;
  3. The "piston" mode of vibration creates a very different tone than the torsional mode of a pin-bridge flattop, more projective to the audience (not necessarily the player) with a stronger, more focused attack and shorter sustain - they weren't intended to sound like flattops and never will, which leads me to:
  4. There's a very specific, orchestral-string derived technique involved in getting the best out of an archtop guitar (what the old-timers used to call "coaxing the velvet out"), and if you expect the same instant gratification as from a flattop you're going to be sorely disappointed - the corollary to this is that as a whole they're merciless in revealing any flaws in technique (when I was teaching I used my '46 Epi Blackstone and '47 Gibson L-7 as a reality check for many a teenage would-be shredder), so if you've got the right strings, proper setup, and a good guitar, examine your approach;
  5. General historical note: although from about the mid-30's on all New York Epiphones below the Spartan were made with laminated sides/back, the tops of all acoustic archtops were carved solid wood - one of their strongest selling points vis-a-vis their competition, right up to the end of the original company in 1956...
__________________
"Mistaking silence for weakness and contempt for fear is the final, fatal error of a fool"
- Sicilian proverb (paraphrased)

Last edited by Steve DeRosa; 07-30-2020 at 09:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-30-2020, 08:46 AM
rchrugg rchrugg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Default

Thanks so much for that candor.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-30-2020, 08:47 AM
rchrugg rchrugg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Default

Awesome feedback, much appreciated
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-30-2020, 08:50 AM
rchrugg rchrugg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Default

Steve, thanks so much for the advice and history lesson. So glad I joined this group
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-30-2020, 02:21 PM
MC5C MC5C is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Tatamagouche Nova Scotia
Posts: 1,136
Default

http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/default.html is the website repository of all information relevant to New York Epiphone era instruments of all types. Huge information repository. This is from the "Model" section of the site, easier to read there and many clickable links to pictures. According to this, carved braced spruce top, pressed laminate walnut arched back and sides, sunburst, Kluson tuners (Stew Mac Golden Age tuners replicate a lot of Kluson tuners of this vintage with new, excellent replacement parts). I have a 1946 Zephyr electric, my favorite guitar to play and one that gives a lot back. Simply wonderful neck on it.

Model: Zenith
First made: 1931
Last made: 1954
Designation: 1931: model on headstock, SN stamped inside body
1934: model + SN on label
Body size: 1931: 13⅝" wide; 19" long (Concert)

1934: 14¾" wide; 19¼" long (Grand Concert)

1935: 15¼" wide; 19¼" long (Auditorium)

1936: 16⅜" wide; 20¼" long (Grand Auditorium)
4-string: 1936: Zenith Tenor / Zenith Plectrum
Finish: 1931: sunburst top (1933–34 only: sunburst semi-opaque top)
1943–45 only: sunburst opaque top

1949: blond finish optional
Headstock: 1931: rounded peak; white banners

1933: rounded peak; engraved gothic script banners; later: lighter font

1934: rounded peak; block letter logo, exclamation point
1934 (later): rounded peak; block letter logo, stickpin

1935: rounded peak; script logo, stickpin

1939: center dip; script logo, stickpin (pearl)
1945: center dip; script logo, stickpin (celluloid)

1948: center dip; script logo, cartouche (pearl)
Plating: nickel
Tuners: 1931: strip Waverly square, plastic buttons

1934: single Grover clipped, plastic buttons
1937: single Waverly clipped wide, plastic buttons
1937: single Grover pointed 6:1, plastic buttons
1939: single Grover pointed 12:1, plastic buttons
1940: single Waverly yoda head, plastic buttons
1943: single Kluson riveted gear, plastic buttons
1943: strip Kluson riveted gear, plastic buttons
1948: single Waverly yoda head, plastic buttons, hex bushings
1952: single Waverly bell-end, plastic buttons, hex bushings
Neck: 1932: mahogany, 1 centerstripe
1940: cherry (1944–45: gold sparkle heelcap)
Fretboard: rosewood, no binding

1931: dot, 4 positions (2 dots fret 7)

1936: dot, 5 positions (2 dots fret 7)

1948: dot, 6 positions (2 dots fret 12)
Pickguard: 1931: black plastic, short

1939: tortoise plastic, long (1949: with E logo)
Tailpiece: trapeze (1943–46: with rosewood bar)
(UK only, late 1930s: Frequensator)
Soundholes: 1931: segmented

1935: cello style

1949: modern style
Top: spruce, carved (earliest: brace-arched); single binding
Back/sides: 1931 maple, pressed laminate, single binding

1933: walnut, pressed laminate, single binding

1949: maple, pressed laminate, single binding
Price:
1932: sb $50
1940: sb $59.50
1941 Oct: sb $66
1946: sb $75
1947: sb $85
1949: sb/bl $85/$110
1950: sb $95
1953: sb/bl $110/$125
1954: sb/bl $125/$140
__________________
Brian Evans
Around 15 archtops, electrics, resonators, a lap steel, a uke, a mandolin, some I made, some I bought, some kinda showed up and wouldn't leave. Tatamagouche Nova Scotia.

Last edited by MC5C; 07-30-2020 at 02:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Archtops

Tags
epiphone, zenith

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=