Rerranging...altering songs..making them more than they are..

[stuartb]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

If I recall correctly, Cat Dance was inspired by a John Renbourn tune. I didn't really like the tune enough to learn it, but there was something about a few of the "combinations of notes" that caught my ear, and I shut off his tune and started writing my own. Pretty common occurrence, I think, where someone hears something in another tune that sparks their interest, maybe a little countermelody, or a few notes in the middle of a bach piece, and use that as an initial motif. I sometimes turn on the radio, listening to whatever, and turn it off in the middle of a song. The groove, or some aspect of the tune will stay in my mind, and I can start humming my own melody that is somehow related. Like continuing a conversation that the tune started. Sometimes it turns into my own tune, that ends up sounding nothing like the tune on the radio.

I'm just tossing these ideas out there as suggestions for different ways to channel your creative impulses.

Yes, and I appreciate that. That song sounds very carefully crafted.

I presume you jot down the simple melody lines first and then add to it. I have pages and pages and pages of stuff I've written, but it's mostely just bits. The bits seldom turn into something longer. Though while I as working on some triads the other day, a nice melody happened, and four triads connected together, then I played it low and high. Sounds quite nice.

I recorded something for the first time two weeks ago. Some big mistakes, as I was nervous, but the guitar didn't sound half bad. First time I had heard the Walker recorded.

thanks for your time,

Stuart

[stuartb]

Originally Posted by FLDavid

One has to "learn the song" in order to play the song
After all, you're playing (for example) "Michelle," not "a song by The Beatles"
Unless Paul McCartney is reading this post, it's never going to be "one-hundred percent faithful to the original," anyway

. . .my $0.02

Not sure I understand David, perhaps it's just late.

Stuart

[stuartb]

Originally Posted by stratokatsu

Just from personal experience... all this about playing to support singing.

My level of abilities doesn't allow me to play too many songs exactly as the original performer did. I can put over some songs OK regardless, but anything with any sort of riff, not even something iconic, means my version is going to be a bit lacking.

Thus, a lot of songs tend to take on my personality in the way they are done, for better or worse.

Something Tadmania suggested I try is to add a finger or remove a finger from the cowboy chords I know and see how they sound in the midst of the song. Sometimes it works and sometimes I have a hard time getting along with the dissonance. Sometimes the dissonance leads me into doing a small variation on the melody, further putting my personality into the song.

Those are the ones I find myself liking more and more. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I keep reminding myself that I don't have to change EVERY song.

I do play solo fingerstyle, but I know what you're saying, and I will learn to play either with voice, or singing, just because it's a learning exercise once again. When I rewrite, it's because I feel the song needs it. I have ripped Caro Mio Ben to shreds and rebuilt it. Such a lovely song. But the arrangement didn't work.

best,

Stuart.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by 220volt

Just don't get into that crowd that changes challenging passages just so they can play it easier, and then they trick themselves into believing that it even sounds better. I think that is the worst thing you can do as a guitar player. You will never progress.

So there's a "crowd" that practices this heinous act, is there? Seriously, I think that's way over the top. Just because we adapt one itzy-bitzy section so that it becomes more playayble does not mean that we "will never progress". Of course we will! That's just one section and we'll have learned a lot in mastering the rest of the song. I would agree, though, that if something is difficult, we should push ourselves to learn it, but if it's something that is taking an inordinate amount of time, it's probably beyond our abilities at this moment. We could always tackle it in the future in the unlikely event that it ever seems necessary.

[220volt]

Originally Posted by ewalling

So there's a "crowd" that practices this heinous act, is there? Seriously, I think that's way over the top. Just because we adapt one itzy-bitzy section so that it becomes more playayble does not mean that we "will never progress". Of course we will! That's just one section and we'll have learned a lot in mastering the rest of the song. I would agree, though, that if something is difficult, we should push ourselves to learn it, but if it's something that is taking an inordinate amount of time, it's probably beyond our abilities at this moment. We could always tackle it in the future in the unlikely event that it ever seems necessary.

So you're one of "them"

Of course you will substitute your own version when difficult part arrives but ONLY if it's taking you whole lot of time and your skill level is so far behind. But, that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to a group that intentionally does this all the time from being lazy enough to learn it properly. I was guilty of it a while back. I then realized that it's only me that I'm fooling. None of my songs sounded smooth and complete. There was always something missing that I couldn't put my finger on. Now I know what it was and I'm really happy with songs that I learn.

[rick-slo]

What you often find out when you are learning a new tune just from an audio (less frequent these days with all the videos around) is that you make the piece harder to play the the original artist did by using the wrong fretting and/or fingering. So in this case applying Oscam's razor may be the totally correct thing to do.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by 220volt

So you're one of "them"

Of course you will substitute your own version when difficult part arrives but ONLY if it's taking you whole lot of time and your skill level is so far behind. But, that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to a group that intentionally does this all the time from being lazy enough to learn it properly. I was guilty of it a while back. I then realized that it's only me that I'm fooling. None of my songs sounded smooth and complete. There was always something missing that I couldn't put my finger on. Now I know what it was and I'm really happy with songs that I learn.

Oh no! I feel like Seinfeld when he discovered from a new girlfriend that he had a "dark side"!! Actually, I do agree. I remember some years back making a bold attempt to learn The Entertainer, only I copped out in the middle and started taking short cuts. The result wasn't too hot. In the last ten years or so I've tried to avoid that, only substituting when really necessary. There's a rag called "Delta Rag" by Allan Jaffe, for example, that had a stretch in it that was just not for me! But that's an exception, and occasionally editing out a particularly cruel hand contortion does not, I think, take too much from a piece.

[220volt]

Originally Posted by ewalling

Oh no! I feel like Seinfeld when he discovered from a new girlfriend that he had a "dark side"!! Actually, I do agree. I remember some years back making a bold attempt to learn The Entertainer, only I copped out in the middle and started taking short cuts. The result wasn't too hot. In the last ten years or so I've tried to avoid that, only substituting when really necessary. There's a rag called "Delta Rag" by Allan Jaffe, for example, that had a stretch in it that was just not for me! But that's an exception, and occasionally editing out a particularly cruel hand contortion does not, I think, take too much from a piece.

for the Seinfeld comment.

Funny you mention The Entertainer but I've also put it off (Chet Atkins style) when I started learning fingerstyle. It was just way beyond my skills. I think I'm ready now, and as soon as I'm done with Tommy Emmanuel mania I will tackle it again.
I also changed the way Tommy plays one part in Borsalino. I just found the easier way, and it sounded the same. But every once in a while I will do it exactly the way he plays it just to get my chops going and it's also good stretching exercise.
As I get older I noticed that I have less tolerance for cheating and more desire to complete things.

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

What you often find out when you are learning a new tune just from an audio (less frequent these days with all the videos around) is that you make the piece harder to play the the original artist did by using the wrong fretting and/or fingering. So in this case applying Oscam's razor may be the totally correct thing to do.

Occam's Razor makes things as simple "as possible" while maintaining the necessary attributes. That is indeed what should be done. I think what 220volt was referring to is players who grossly simplify at the expense of not expanding their abilities.

[220volt]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

Occam's Razor makes things as simple "as possible" while maintaining the necessary attributes. That is indeed what should be done. I think what 220volt was referring to is players who grossly simplify at the expense of not expanding their abilities.

You're right. And I wasn't really referring to simplification, but just plain cheating (playing it wrong) and then convincing yourself that it sounded good so you can just move on to the next thing. I was guilty of that as well.

Big fan of Occam's Razor as well

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by stuartb

...I presume you jot down the simple melody lines first and then add to it. ...

Hi Stuart...
As for me, jotting would take too long and interfere with my creativity. I find it easier to spin around and fire up the H2 on my table behind my SoundSeat, and record some extended noodling without breaking my creative rhythm. When I'm being creative, I think best with my instrument, not with pencil/paper.

I compose quicker and better with just the guitar and my voice...and then I can worry about extending the fragments by either combining some fragments into a song, or adding more after listening to what inspiration I had to begin with...all later.

And I'm still developing arrangements of songs I started years ago...as my skills improve, some of my ancient arrangements benefit from the improvements too...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Stuart...
As for me, jotting would take too long and interfere with my creativity.

yeah, I'm mostly with Larry here. I generally work with an idea on the guitar until at least the basic melody and harmony are worked out. I do sometimes tab an idea out once it gets to that stage, if I'm not going to be able to work on it for a while, or if I'm stuck on where to go. I have also found writing out tunes as I go to be useful for composing. You can sketch out a song structure to help figure out what else is needed. Say I have a idea that could be a "verse". Assume a normal song structure, Intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, verse, chorus, end, or whatever. I have the verse, so I bring up Sibelius or Finale, write out the verse, and blast it into the 3 verse slots, leaving some number of bars for the rest. Now it suddenly looks like a tune that is just missing a few bars here and there. All I have to do is decide what goes there. I end up saying, "I just need 8 bars here, that should be easy". Just a mental trick to push me into finishing it. it may all change, even the idea I started with, but it forms a process for getting there.

I do almost always end up writing my stuff out before it's "done", it provides another way to visualize it, smooth out any rough edges and so on. There's a cool thing that I find happens with some tunes, where one minute I'm trying to figure how how the piece should go, and suddenly the tune "exists", and there's no longer any question. It's as if the tune exists in its own right, without me having had much to do with it. For better or worse, that's how the tune goes. Writing it out seems to help get the tune to that stage. Maybe it's a "its there in black and white, it's must be true", kind of thing :-)