Do classical guitars "wear out"

[MBE]

I think it's the flip side of the coin in terms of guitars "opening up". Classical guitarists tend to buy an instrument that sounds perfect to them now - and changes over time are therefore unwelcome. Steel string guitarists but a guitar they like now but hope to love more in the future - and welcome the changes.

I think the changes are similar...just welcomed by one crowd and unwelcome by the others. Certainly, there are great Hausers and Torres and Ramirez guitars that have survived for ages and are still treasured by anyone who plays them - so to call them worn out or undesirable tonally would be ridiculous.

[Paultergeist]

I have heard of this effect of guitars being "played out," but I have never actually heard it.

Originally Posted by bohemian

Segovia believed guitars get worn out .

Maybe......but he also believed that no one should dare play any piece he arranged any differently than he arranged it. I am wondering if there is a quote that Segovia actually stated this opinion.......seems to me he had a Hauser for much of his career......?

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

I have heard of this effect of guitars being "played out," but I have never actually heard it.


Maybe......but he also believed that no one should dare play any piece he arranged any differently than he arranged it. I am wondering if there is a quote that Segovia actually stated this opinion.......seems to me he had a Hauser for much of his career......?

I would need some evidence that Segovia said that he needed a new guitar every season. Segovia's guitars are fairly well documented.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by Peter Lovett

Classical guitars and violins are two very different beasts in their construction, especially in the way they are braced. A violin also has a post under the bridge that gives support to the downward tension the strings impart. Steel string guitars and classical guitars are also different in construction as well where essentially the tension of the strings is braced whereas in a classical guitar the tension is merely transferred onto the sound top.

Julian Bream certainly maintains that a classical guitar loses its sparkle after a few years but perhaps that has more to do with the amount of practice a professional player does. There must also be the possibility that the guitar "dries out" over the years and becomes less flexible and therefore loses resonance.

Most people would be happy with Segovia's or Bream's "leftover" guitars. I suspect that artists like Segovia and Bream are no more immune from GAS than the rest of us.

[bohemian]

"I would need some evidence that Segovia said that he needed a new guitar every season. Segovia's guitars are fairly well documented."

My neighbor is a concert classical guitarist. He was a friend and student of Segovias for 40 plus years. He was classically trained in England then went off to Spain for 20 years to study. He was the head of the guitar department for a prestigious university. He made many of Segovias guitar cases. He was the subject of a 1964 PBS program of a Segovia Master Class. He was the recipient of many of Segovias guitars. He has recorded. He has built guitars for the last decade. His house is full of personal photos and memorabilia of and from Segovia. He loaned guitars to Segovia when he was travelling in the US .. this when Segovia felt his guitar was not playing correctly. I have known him for 16 years. He borrows specialized machinery from me to do some of the operations on his guitars. My shop is full of guitar wood that has come from him.. some from trees he felled himself. He is a very quiet and modest man of incredible experience and accomplishment. He is credible.

He is the source of my information. I am confident in the voracity of his statements.


I have also seen in print from other sources that Segovia believed guitars wear out.


Segovia did not have "GAS". Makers lined up to bring him guitars in hopes he would use and endorse them.

One other note. As much as Segovia loved the Fleta family, and for a time played their guitars... he stopped playing them because they were not to his liking. This in spite of his personal relationship with them.


I would offer that there could be no "evidence" except for anectodatal.

[steveh]

Listen to these and then tell me if the guitar sounds "worn out":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIHkWwG-4TM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkZ0ILGCHYs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kepIvnLLs2c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okbWHXwx6YA

It was built 1888.

The first tune is one of my favourites ever; so simple yet so effective.

Cheers,
Steve

[usb_chord]

Steve, those are some of my favorite videos on the internet. Geez he's SO accessible! Andrew York....what a treasure.

[ZippyChip]

This one by York blows my mind! I listened to it four times in a row. Forget the dissonance and listen to the entire piece. This shows how complex his thinking is musically and the skill of his execution is amazing. York is on a different level from most other players IMHO.

I think I hear some reverb in the audio so I wonder if the audio was enhanced in some way.
But, I really like the sound of that old Torres regardless of that. If I had a guitar that sounded like that recording I would be very happy indeed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-2ad6igISo

[Blueser100]

Interesting topic. I guess all the more reason to have an indestructible Yamaha all laminate C40 (with melamine finish, yikes) in your arsenal.

[RustyZombie]

I can confidently say much of this is just in peoples' heads. Both steel string and classical guitars' sound can and do change over time. However, whether is it's better or worse is a subjective judgement made by the individual. But if you have a preconceived notion that any changes are going to sound worse, you are often going to hear what you are expecting to hear, and vice versa.

That is why classical guitarists hear tone degradation while steel string players hear improvements. They just happen to have opposite preconceived notions. Everyone like to think they are immune to such psychosomatics, but there is good reason marketers have the saying of "perception is reality".

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

I have heard of this effect of guitars being "played out," but I have never actually heard it.


Maybe......but he also believed that no one should dare play any piece he arranged any differently than he arranged it. I am wondering if there is a quote that Segovia actually stated this opinion.......seems to me he had a Hauser for much of his career......?

Originally Posted by brucefulton

I would need some evidence that Segovia said that he needed a new guitar every season. Segovia's guitars are fairly well documented.

The classicalguitar.net story referenced in post #6 is based on information in The Classical Guitar: A Complete History (1997) by Tony Bacon et al.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by bohemian

"I would need some evidence that Segovia said that he needed a new guitar every season. Segovia's guitars are fairly well documented."

My neighbor is a concert classical guitarist. He was a friend and student of Segovias for 40 plus years. He was classically trained in England then went off to Spain for 20 years to study. He was the head of the guitar department for a prestigious university. He made many of Segovias guitar cases. He was the subject of a 1964 PBS program of a Segovia Master Class. He was the recipient of many of Segovias guitars. He has recorded. He has built guitars for the last decade. His house is full of personal photos and memorabilia of and from Segovia. He loaned guitars to Segovia when he was travelling in the US .. this when Segovia felt his guitar was not playing correctly. I have known him for 16 years. He borrows specialized machinery from me to do some of the operations on his guitars. My shop is full of guitar wood that has come from him.. some from trees he felled himself. He is a very quiet and modest man of incredible experience and accomplishment. He is credible.

He is the source of my information. I am confident in the voracity of his statements.


I have also seen in print from other sources that Segovia believed guitars wear out.


Segovia did not have "GAS". Makers lined up to bring him guitars in hopes he would use and endorse them.

One other note. As much as Segovia loved the Fleta family, and for a time played their guitars... he stopped playing them because they were not to his liking. This in spite of his personal relationship with them.


I would offer that there could be no "evidence" except for anectodatal.

This is at odds with other published reports that Segovia used principally a single Manual Ramirez from around 1912 until acquiring his first Hauser in 1924. In 1928, Segovia began using a new Hauser constructed for him in consult with Miguel Llobet, which he played until acquiring another in about 1934. The 1924 Hauser went first to Sophocles Papas, and then eventually to Charlie Byrd and is now reported owned by a fellow named R. Riley.

I don't doubt that lots of guitars passed through Segovia's hands because, as you note, luthiers either built guitars for him in hopes of getting an endorsement, or dedicated guitars to him. But most published research I've seen indicates that Segovia used just a few Hausers during the golden years of his middle career and for his tours and recordings in the 30s - 50s. He switched to Ramirez in the 1960s. It's not clear how much of his feelings of guitars wearing out were due to his change from gut to nylon strings, for which earlier guitars were not braced to handle the higher tension. He is reported to have said his Hauser had lost some tone after its retirement, but most sources I've seen indicate he played it for several years. Perhaps he did trade Ramirez guitars more frequently later in life, but it's not clear that it is because he thought they were wearing out, and reports from Charlie Byrd and the 1928 Hauser's current owner are that it is still magnificent.

But, Segovia is dead, so we'll never know for sure what he really though. And even if he did think that guitars wear out, that doesn't mean he was correct There are quite a few videos of old classicals on the Guitar Salon International web site, so I guess one will just have to make up their own mind.

[bohemian]

I see nothing "at odds".

I'll go with first hand information provided by "someone who was there".

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by bohemian

I see nothing "at odds".

I'll go with first hand information provided by "someone who was there".

I have a friend who was there who says your friend is wrong. I'm sure brucefulton has a friend that was there to that can't back up my friend.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

This is at odds with other published reports that Segovia used principally a single Manual Ramirez from around 1912 until acquiring his first Hauser in 1924. In 1928, Segovia began using a new Hauser constructed for him in consult with Miguel Llobet, which he played until acquiring another in about 1934. The 1924 Hauser went first to Sophocles Papas, and then eventually to Charlie Byrd and is now reported owned by a fellow named R. Riley.

I don't doubt that lots of guitars passed through Segovia's hands because, as you note, luthiers either built guitars for him in hopes of getting an endorsement, or dedicated guitars to him. But most published research I've seen indicates that Segovia used just a few Hausers during the golden years of his middle career and for his tours and recordings in the 30s - 50s. He switched to Ramirez in the 1960s. It's not clear how much of his feelings of guitars wearing out were due to his change from gut to nylon strings, for which earlier guitars were not braced to handle the higher tension. He is reported to have said his Hauser had lost some tone after its retirement, but most sources I've seen indicate he played it for several years. Perhaps he did trade Ramirez guitars more frequently later in life, but it's not clear that it is because he thought they were wearing out, and reports from Charlie Byrd and the 1928 Hauser's current owner are that it is still magnificent.

But, Segovia is dead, so we'll never know for sure what he really though. And even if he did think that guitars wear out, that doesn't mean he was correct There are quite a few videos of old classicals on the Guitar Salon International web site, so I guess one will just have to make up their own mind.

thanks for the information. that was my recollection, that he played one of his hausers for many years.