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View Poll Results: Would you
build with this wood? 34 35.05%
NOT build with this wood? 13 13.40%
own a guitar made with this wood? 42 43.30%
be unwilling to own a guitar made with this wood? 22 22.68%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 12-08-2013, 12:35 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
Of all the rosewood I have used, EIR sounds the least like one IMO. Yet, since there are more of them, one could argue that it is the quintessentially rosewood sound and they'd be statistically correct. But this does NOT make the statement true because BRW is the wood that created the Rosewood sound. And PLEASE do not say that EIR is a tonal substitute for BRW, that is uninformed. It is also false IMO.
So what is the "rosewood sound", Bruce? What does a BRW Martin have to do with a BRW Somogyi or a BRW Taylor? The truth is, there is no such thing as a "universal rosewood sound" -- only general qualities associated with it.

As for EIR being a tonal substitute for BRW, leave my own opinion aside and you'll find plenty of your peers who think it is a valid substitute.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
Then:
I am having increasing trouble with seeing "expert" opinions offered as facts in the forum, and in particular in this thread.
I am expressing my thoughts politely and never once attacked any of your posts, never once attacked your work. Are you saying that all the players who read and post on the AGF are not entitled to expressing their opinion because they built fewer guitars than you?

Players have ears to listen and a brain to analyze. And smart people know better than to accept what is imposed upon them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
But it does drive me nuts when I see others whose knowledge is obviously (to me) more modest gain a reputation so powerful that many of the readers here seem to tremble before them. And the luthiers who do have some actual knowledge are mostly unwilling to speak up for fear of losing business. That's an opinion, by the way, but I do have some inside knowledge.
Knowledge of what, Bruce? Of how a guitar sounds like? Do I need to bow to your expertise to understand what I hear? As for fear of losing business, please show me one post of mine -- just one -- where I'm attacking any luthier's work on this forum. Keep looking -- because you won't find any.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
The high end guitar market has increasing become driven by the lay customer, who has in many cases become the wood supplier, and with the advent of the internet has taken an increasing control of aesthetics and the increasing bells and whistles of the genre. This is not all good, and for those of us who have spent a lifetime actually studying and perhaps even understanding the instrument, it can be a professional affront. Perhaps it is how a qualified doctor feels when a patient comes in having self-diagnosed with only a couple of the facts.

In with the new and out with the old, certainly, but I believe there is something being lost in the bathwater.
It's a free world -- and people like what they like, they believe what they want to believe in. If your ideas and experience were so valuable, people would be chasing you for your expertise -- not the only way around.
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  #62  
Old 12-08-2013, 01:11 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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BTW, dear AGFers, never believe a word that I say as I just play the guitar.

However I just found a little gem from one of the most respected builders on the AGF -- the great Laurent Brondel.

Here's what Laurent has to say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurent Brondel View Post
In a blind test nobody can say if the B&S are Brazilian, Madagascar, Indian, cocobolo or other similar woods. Those tiny wood differences are dwarfed by building style and natural build variations.
I'd like to believe that, all other things being equal, if I build with Braz instead of Indian I'll get a bit more definition and note separation, but is this really true? The real value of Braz is its relative rarity and unique appearance (for the best sets).
Now, if the listener sees the guitars and knows the woods before hand, all bets are off. We tend to hear with our eyes.
I think it's safe to assume that Laurent is technically grounded, yes?

Hope you're all having a great weekend.
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  #63  
Old 12-08-2013, 01:17 AM
BBWW BBWW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
I have not built with the Tree, but if and when I do, I truly believe I am going to get exceptional results. This is because the wood is harder, heavier, and from at least one point of view stronger than any other Mahogany I've seen. The caveat is that in order to harvest this potential, I believe the resulting guitar is going to be relatively fragile. Not everyone is going to have the knowledge and skill to keep such a guitar's integrity intact, but for the one who can I expect it will be incomparable. Or maybe I'm just bragging . . so test me.
You, me and a good set of "The Tree". To paraphrase Darth Vadar:

"You have much wisdom, young Skywaker. But if you were to die, all the knowledge you seek about the true nature of "The Tree" will be lost. Learn the power of the Dark Side. Focus your power on "The Tree"."
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  #64  
Old 12-08-2013, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
That wood would bother me. I've also heard (either here or on the Martin board) the guitars made from "The Tree" are great to look at, but don't necessarily share sonic greatness equal to the physical beauty.
Then it's not for you.

I am of the opinion that you put great wood in the hands of a great builder, you most likely get a great guitar. Put great wood in to a factory model, you may not get the same sonic value. I've known several luthiers that became believers after they build with The Tree. I believe a lot of the sets from "The Tree" are great wood. Is it the best, doubt it, but I couldn't tell you what is the best either. If you don't like the figure than the wood is of little value to you. I get that.

I know that I think the tone matches the asthestic so I know of at least three people who agree now. All of our ears and eyes see and hear different things, or at least our brains interpret differently. In the end, it's just a piece of wood.
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  #65  
Old 12-08-2013, 05:32 AM
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No Comment.

Last edited by Haans; 12-08-2013 at 08:03 AM.
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  #66  
Old 12-08-2013, 05:58 AM
jeff crisp jeff crisp is offline
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Wow...is it time for the feats of strength yet.
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  #67  
Old 12-08-2013, 07:47 AM
SJ VanSandt SJ VanSandt is offline
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This thread is definitely generating more heat than light now. Moderators?

Personal animosity is out of place here.
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  #68  
Old 12-08-2013, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeCharter View Post
Not sure if it's here or on the UMGF but I hear that Martin grade their wood on the basis of aesthetics.

I also read somewhere that the D100 isn't ten times better than the D45, which in turn isn't twice as good sounding as the D42.

Crazy how people are ready to invest a lot of money for features that in reality don't do much to the sound.
I agree with you.

Martin's upcharge for BRZ doesn't jive with the individual luthier's price quote IMHO. It is totally incongruous that a D45A costs 50k MSLP and one can buy a '59 D28E off ebay for 5K and have the martin repair shop turn it into a D45. I don't know what they would charge but it would probably be less than 10k.

I guess people buying a D45A are also buying collectibility.

The luthier builds I have in progress have both at one time or another crossed the discussion of BRZ, and I ended up going with Madagascar on the 00028 because I liked the look of the sets better, I've played a Madi 00028 before and loved it, and It's coming from Sweden so no CITES issues. I also discussed BRZ with Wingert and ended up going with AB.

Anyhoo, back on topic....I believe the market price for Tree sets has room for all kinds of different variations and only time will tell.
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  #69  
Old 12-08-2013, 10:12 AM
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iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is offline
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Default I Hesitate to post this but...

I am relatively new here, but I wanted to add a couple thoughts:

The poll is interesting in that by a 2:1 ratio, both luthiers and players would use the set that Bruce presented. This result frankly surprised me (but many things do). A great example of the power of aesthetics and perceived performance associated with a particular piece of wood (Nature vs. Nurture).

1) This forum offers a unique place for professional luthiers to showcase their work; both in progress and complete. In many cases, it is shared by the client who commissioned the piece.

2) Bruce (a luthier) posted this to query the pulse of: a) potential buyers; b) other luthiers. It was an interesting query because it weighed the draw of exclusivity against an obvious visual flaw (an interesting prosit)

3) On one hand, we all have opinions and places like AGF are designed as vehicle exchange them.

4) On the other hand, while we all have opinions; I can imagine it quite frustrating for someone who is an experienced luthier to accept dialogue as equal from lay people/players; particularly when a) it relates to sonic claims regarding tonewoods; a subject that they have spent a lifetime trying to master b) or when a thread participant has a perceived sales interest in propagating the brand equity of the wood in question.

If someone on this forum expressed an opinion on a subject that I was expert in that I felt was misleading or wrong, I suspect that I might be frustrated as well. There are luthier forums where they exchange ideas, but AGF is unique in that builders and customers come together to celebrate the craft of custom luthiery. Let's continue in that spirit and respect those skilled in the art.

I leave you with an image...

My $.02

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  #70  
Old 12-08-2013, 11:12 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
4) On the other hand, while we all have opinions; I can imagine it quite frustrating for someone who is an experienced luthier to accept dialogue as equal from lay people/players; particularly when a) it relates to sonic claims regarding tonewoods; a subject that they have spent a lifetime trying to master b) or when a thread participant has a perceived sales interest in propagating the brand equity of the wood in question.

If someone on this forum expressed an opinion on a subject that I was expert in that I felt was misleading or wrong, I suspect that I might be frustrated as well. There are luthier forums where they exchange ideas, but AGF is unique in that builders and customers come together to celebrate the craft of custom luthiery. Let's continue in that spirit and respect those skilled in the art.
Respect does not mean to drink any experienced person's opinion without questioning it -- especially when the group of experienced luthiers does not even agree to a consensus.

Forget the lay people for a moment. Here's an opinion I agree with, again from the great Laurent Brondel, whose work and skills are admired by everyone here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurent Brondel View Post
Two guitars with identical tonewoods built by two different builders (with different philosophies) will sound vastly more different from two guitars with different tonewoods built by the same builder.

It's not to say that tonewoods are not important.
The quality and nature of materials are of prime importance.
However the differences between materials of equal quality are usually vastly exaggerated. Luthiery is not like cooking.
While I am guilty of this to some extent in attempting to describe the differences between this and that wood to my clients, it is humorous to read or hear flowery, cocksure and very detailed descriptions of tonewoods… Smoke and mirrors.

The best proof is in blindfold tests: who can recognize a mahogany from a rosewood guitar just by listening without knowing or looking? Much less distinguish between various species of rosewood and/or hardwoods.

Brazilian rosewood does not have a sound, contrary to what some would have you believe.
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  #71  
Old 12-08-2013, 11:48 AM
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Bruce Sexauer Bruce Sexauer is offline
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Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said — 'You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.'

I hope to not be driven out of my own thread, but I am not going to address this any further at this time as I have surely made my point.
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Last edited by Bruce Sexauer; 12-08-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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  #72  
Old 12-08-2013, 12:04 PM
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I think people can safely say what's on their minds on this forum and 99% of people will understand that posts about subjective qualities are, almost by definition, opinions. I don't need caveats on every post that say:
"Warning, the following is an opinion," as I think it's fairly obvious - even to the layperson - when that is happening. Nor do I appreciate or enjoy having posts "policed" by "authorities" on subjective qualities. Everyone here should be able to make statements about their opinions, particularly as they relate to the alchemy of tone wood, without having their credibility brought into question.

As for the original question, I would not use that piece of mahogany for a build as I'm generally pretty ambivalent about quilted mahogany, and I don't envision a creative use of the ebony plugs on the middle of every piece.
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  #73  
Old 12-08-2013, 12:20 PM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
Although I named you, Mau, I do not mean this as a personal attack on you or your credibility, and there is no need to defend yourself. What I hope to accomplish is to temper the way you and several others throw your considerable weight around, which is not doing the forum or the guitar making community any good, in my opinion. Many people take what is said in the forum quite seriously, and some people tend to make unqualified statements as though they were facts, when they are actually just opinions.
You do not mean any personal attack on my credibility -- but you talk about unqualified statements in the same breath?

I think you are giving me way too much importance, Bruce. I post a few times a week and I much prefer posting photos than actually typing any text.

I happen to sincerely feel that tonewoods don't make that much of a difference, especially when comparing species of the same "family". That is my OPINION after playing hundreds if not thousands of guitars. I do not understand how this can be anything but an opinion -- and I do not understand how this can be perceived as an attack on anyone's skills.

I have not once stepped in any of your threads and told people not to buy your guitars so I'm not sure what you want me to temper, Bruce. You want me to post less? Or perhaps do you want me to only post if I agree with you?

No one is questioning your building technique. Those who like what you build decide to buy your guitars -- simple as is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
The "Great" Laurent Brondel?

I may or may not agree with this statement, but it is certainly presumptuous, and it is opinion presented as fact.
Is this really worth arguing?

Perhaps we haven't gone to school at the same era -- but I think you are confusing facts and opinions.

Barbra Streisand was married to Elliott Gould from 1963 to 1971 -- that's a fact.

Barbra Streisand is a great singer -- that's an opinion, and a vague one.

As for Laurent, let's not care for what I think -- but here are a few more quotes I found:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
Laurent is amongst the best-of-the-best builders in today's handcrafted marketplace.

I have played several of his instruments at the various guitar shows, and they have always been superb instruments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Acoustic Music Co (TAMCO) UK View Post
One of the very best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Klepper View Post
He's a first-rate builder. Order before his prices go up.
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  #74  
Old 12-08-2013, 02:02 PM
runamuck runamuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
"... but I am not going to address this any further at this time as I have surely made my point.
After reading back over this thread your point is not clear to me and possibly not clear to others as well.

Maybe you could give other specific examples of what it is that's disturbing you here.

Jim McCarthy
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  #75  
Old 12-08-2013, 02:17 PM
geordie geordie is offline
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I voted "be unwilling to own a guitar made with this wood?"
not because of the ebony plugs, my personal thoughts are I just don't find it's figure pretty, garish is a word that comes to mind.
It'll be interesting to see just how it's viewed, down the line, I have my suspicions.
I would be interested to run a stat on just how many times pictures of this timber have appeared on these pages as it may have gatecrashed my dreams on more than one occasion .
guess I'm just not a devotee of WOW.
Out of interest, has anyone had a guitar made of this with 'solid' sides, I ask because I've bent highly flamed Maple (on a bending iron) and there were a few heart stopping moments - I wouldn't relish the thought with this timber.
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