Going to the Dark Side: I Now Love Round-Shouldered Dreads Best!

[lowrider]

This thread is getting kind of old. It could use some Jersey Shore music to punch it up;

[zoopeda]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I think you mean "Jumbo" not "dread" (unless you are talking about the original 12 fret dread style which I play).

Do you prefer a Ford Corvette or a Chevrolet Mustang?

This is worth noting. True slope shoulder dreadnoughts are few and far between, but those who have played them understand why the distinction is so significant. Calling the Gibson J-45 shape is a misnomer. Slope shoulder dreadnoughts are 12-fret with the same lower bout width (see the Martin photo below). The Gibson jumbo has a wider low boat and 14-fret neck joint. The J-45, in all its iterations and copies, is not a “dreadnought.” They sounds nothing alike.

Martin Slope shoulder dreadnought:


Gibson Jumbo:

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by zoopeda

This is worth noting. True slope shoulder dreadnoughts are few and far between, but those who have played them understand why the distinction is so significant. Calling the Gibson J-45 shape is a misnomer. Slope shoulder dreadnoughts are 12-fret with the same lower bout width (see the Martin photo below). The Gibson jumbo has a wider low boat and 14-fret neck joint. The J-45, in all its iterations and copies, is not a “dreadnought.” They sounds nothing alike.

Martin Slope shoulder dreadnought:


Gibson Jumbo:

Thank you zoopeda,

I'm not having a rant at the other SM, but I do wonder why people here, mostly so knowledgeable seem to confuse the Gibson design (jumbo) with the Martin dreadnought.

I have a theory, which may be nonsense, but Martin used the Ditson 111 shape for their original dreadnoughts from 1931 to '34, and maybe, just maybe, someone at Gibson heard that they were planning to bring out a 14 fret version so designed their Jumbo (also introduced in 1934) to compete with Martin's new offering but with "inspiration" from the Martin original but with 14 frets clear and with a shorter scale.

I don't know if there are other similarities (under the hood) between a Martin and a jumbo, and of course Gibson tried various incarnations to grab some Market share with the longer scale on the Advanced Jumbo, and later te "Birds" copied the Martin dreadnought shape.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Well stated, but in terms of function, popularity, market presence and application, the J-45, IMHO, has much more in common with, for example, a D-18. Whatever you call it -- a Jumbo, or a Dreadnought, or a Jumbo Dreadnought, or a Dreadnought Jumbo -- what it IS is an extremely popular 14-fret design (not 12-fret) that is regarded by hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players and consumers as an icon of the industry. It's FUNCTION is as a definitive singer-songwriter, folk, or Bluegrass guitar, right along with the Martin D models. In all things, I favor function over form.

I own about twelve guitars, split equally between slope dreads and square-shouldered dreads. I don't own a single 12-fret guitar, nor do I know anyone who does. If I had to guess, I'd say these (whatever you call them) 14-fret iconic guitars, both Martin and Gibson, outsell 12-fret models industry-wide by at least ten to one, maybe twenty to one.

You can call yours a ham sandwich, if you like, or a rutabaga, or an Edsel, or Prince Albert in a Can. Mine are all slope dreads.

BTW, on a related topic, the standard 351 Fender pick shape is NOT a teardrop, although everyone in the world calls it a teardrop. Here's a teardrop, the Fender 358:



So we call things what we call things, and I haven't noticed that the Earth has slipped off its axis yet for mislabeling a guitar.

Interesting discussion, gents. Thanks very much.

sm

[nitram]

Originally Posted by Larry Mal

I mean, he's got a point. If we can just agree to call the square shoulder guitars dreadnaughts and the slope shouldered ones jumbos, then we don't have to type "slope shouldered dreadnaughts" all the time.

Or "dreadnoughts."

[Charmed Life Picks]

My default is usually just "slope dread." Others have other defaults. Whatever they are, they sound pretty good.

sm

[Tnfiddler]

I played my D-41 at church this morning and it’s an AMAZING guitar. I took my Bourgeois Slope D to church tonight and I just LOVE this guitar!! Such a killer tone and the most balanced guitar I’ve ever played. I love them both and there’s no way I could pick my absolute favorite of my two.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

I played my D-41 at church this morning and it’s an AMAZING guitar. I took my Bourgeois Slope D to church tonight and I just LOVE this guitar!! Such a killer tone and the most balanced guitar I’ve ever played. I love them both and there’s no way I could pick my absolute favorite of my two.

Tn: Just to confirm, the Bourgeois D-41 is a 14-FRET design, correct, not a 12-fret?

Thanks,
Scott

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Tn: Just to confirm, the Bourgeois D-41 is a 14-FRET design, correct, not a 12-fret?

Thanks,
Scott

My D-41 is a Martin Reimagined model. Oh how I wish I had a Bourgeois D-41. I was just saying that there's NO WAY I could pick a favorite between the two. The 41 has more overall volume, but the Bourgeois has a tone that is second to none!! I will say that I love the Slope shoulder MUCH better for comfortability when I'm playing and sitting!

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

My D-41 is a Martin Reimagined model. Oh how I wish I had a Bourgeois D-41. I was just saying that there's NO WAY I could pick a favorite between the two. The 41 has more overall volume, but the Bourgeois has a tone that is second to none!! I will say that I love the Slope shoulder MUCH better for comfortability when I'm playing and sitting!

\

So these are all 14-fret guitars, correct? Just wanted to make sure. There is some dispute on these terms, so I want to make sure we're comparing apples to apples.

Thanks,
sm

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

\

So these are all 14-fret guitars, correct? Just wanted to make sure. There is some dispute on these terms, so I want to make sure we're comparing apples to apples.

Thanks,
sm

Aha! I see what you did there!! Yes! My Square-shoulder DREAD is a 14-fret model AND my Slope/round/jumbo DREAD is a also a 14-fret model!! Well, I think they are. In a previous life, they may have been 12-fretters! It's all so confusing!! Especially when I'm out at a jam and someone comes up and asks me if my guitars are Dreads or Jumbos! They didn't get enough schooling to be advanced Jumbos. Was this reply out of line??

[zoopeda]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

You can call yours a ham sandwich, if you like, or a rutabaga, or an Edsel, or Prince Albert in a Can. Mine are all slope dreads...

So we call things what we call things, and I haven't noticed that the Earth has slipped off its axis yet for mislabeling a guitar.

Interesting discussion, gents. Thanks very much.

sm

Aren’t you an English teacher??

I wasn’t trolling you; I genuinely thought you’d be intrigued by the opportunity to use more accurate terminology.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by zoopeda

Aren’t you an English teacher??

I wasn’t trolling you; I genuinely thought you’d be intrigued by the opportunity to use more accurate terminology.

Zoo, didn't take it that way at all. Sorry if my response sounded snarky. I encourage my students to correct me every day and don't take it personally.

On your point, I did a little research. Here is a 14-fret slope that Martin themselves is labeling as a "dreadnought":
https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars...7-black-smoke/

In fact it appears the entire Martin slope line (please correct me if wrong) is called a DSS -- Dreadnought Slope Shoulder.

Santa Cruz labels them as Slope Shouldered Dreadnoughts: https://santacruzguitar.com/category...d-dreadnought/

Eastman has all their slope models under their Dreadnought category, with a completely separate category for Jumbos (which doesn't include the slope models):
https://www.eastmanguitars.com/acoustic_dreadnought

Likewise, Blueridge calls them "Slope Dreadnoughts": https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guit...coustic-guitar

Guild has all their slopes under "Dreadnought," with the models starting with DS. Like Eastman, they have a separate Jumbo category, with no slopes on that page.
https://guildguitars.com/guitars/aco...s/dreadnought/

And Alvarez calls them "slope dreads" too:
https://www.alvarezguitars.com/guitar/dymr70sb/

However, Zoo, on your side of the ledger, it appears Collings does indeed only designate slope 12-fret models as "dreadnoughts":
https://www.collingsguitars.com/ds-series/

It does not appear Yamaha does slopes.

Wish I had more time to research, which I love. From one guitar nerd to the other.

Best,
Scott

[zoopeda]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Zoo, didn't take it that way at all. Sorry if my response sounded snarky. I encourage my students to correct me every day and don't take it personally.

On your point, I did a little research. Here is a 14-fret slope that Martin themselves is labeling as a "dreadnought":
https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars...7-black-smoke/

In fact it appears the entire Martin slope line (please correct me if wrong) is called a DSS -- Dreadnought Slope Shoulder.

Santa Cruz labels them as Slope Shouldered Dreadnoughts: https://santacruzguitar.com/category...d-dreadnought/

Eastman has all their slope models under their Dreadnought category, with a completely separate category for Jumbos (which doesn't include the slope models):
https://www.eastmanguitars.com/acoustic_dreadnought

Likewise, Blueridge calls them "Slope Dreadnoughts": https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guit...coustic-guitar

Guild has all their slopes under "Dreadnought," with the models starting with DS. Like Eastman, they have a separate Jumbo category, with no slopes on that page.
https://guildguitars.com/guitars/aco...s/dreadnought/

And Alvarez calls them "slope dreads" too:
https://www.alvarezguitars.com/guitar/dymr70sb/

However, Zoo, on your side of the ledger, it appears Collings does indeed only designate slope 12-fret models as "dreadnoughts":
https://www.collingsguitars.com/ds-series/

It does not appear Yamaha does slopes.

Wish I had more time to research, which I love. From one guitar nerd to the other.

Best,
Scott

So, of course, people use whatever terminology they like. And businesses use whatever terminology they think will sell guitars.

As you probably know, in 1931, Martin released the first ever guitar called the "dreadnought" named after the dreaded & massive warship. It was the 12-fret, slope-shouldered D-1 (now reproduced as the D-1 Authentic 1931). It has a body length of 21.0 inches and lower bout width of 15 5/8".

A few years later, they were convinced to squinch down (lutherie term, I'm sure) the upper bout to accommodate a 14-fret neck attachment to a 20" long body with the same lower bout width. Thus, the slope-shoulder disappeared.

Later, Gibson released a similar guitar to the 14-fret dreadnought but with a shorter body and wider lower bout. This was so different, it was termed the jumbo to differentiate from the dreadnought. The Gibson jumbo measures 20.25" body length (like a 14 fret Martin dreadnought) with a whopping 16 inch lower bout width. Martin later created a guitar they also called the Jumbo with similar dimensions.

As you point out, lots of companies started using the language a lot more loosely, paying less attention to the dimensions and more to marketing jingle. Martin did recently release a wider DSS, but it's a much longer body than the jumbo. Of note, they're all 4-7/8" deep (although some, like the Eastmans, I notice, are more shallow at 4-1/2").

Anyway, I don't intend to troll or to be pedantic as much as to stick to the historical distinctions of which is which. Clearly, the 20-ish inch long, 16 inch wide, dreadnought depth guitars are called Jumbo, and the 21ish inch long, usually 12-fret neck, 15.5ish inch wide, dreadnought depth guitars are called slope shouldered dreads.

There's another thread where people are claiming that the fashionable colloquialism should predominate, but my old philosophy major rings through and I can't help but feel words and definitions matter and that when a distinction is clear and makes sense from a design standpoint, we should all try to learn that rather than whatever marketing lingo comes our way. That's my story, anyway, and I'm sticking to it. :-)

Anyway, just look at these bodies, and tell me they don’t deserve different names...

[Charmed Life Picks]

Zoo, don't feel trolled or schooled, and hope you feel the same.

If nothing else, this thread proves several things: 1) We have no life; and 2) We are hopeless guitar nerds.

Guilty as charged. Thanks, Zoo! Great stuff.

scott