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  #16  
Old 03-19-2022, 09:25 AM
icuker icuker is offline
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I'd love to see Taylor build a Gypsy Jazz guitar. I agree, they could use the 100 or even 200 series fairly easily and reasonably priced.
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  #17  
Old 03-19-2022, 09:36 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
Hi Steve,

I ran a resonator guitar company for 8 years, Busker Guitars, and was Michael Messer's partner for his guitar brand. We were certainly "niche" and I knew that our customers were all multiple guitar owners already but probably coming to the reso for the first time. So I geared everything around great setups and timbre on £500 to £600 gbp instruments, that players could gig without worry. Never advertised beyond my website and always had a waiting list.

I tried to find a metalwork factory in the UK to build bodies and a wood shop to make the necks but, even using the gov scheme to partner businesses, no one wanted the relatively small orders we would be placing. So we used a family owned workshop in China, who did have access to a metal working plant with some tooling already and neck making workshops. We paid for some new tooling, sent out detailed designs, Michael visited the workshop, and went from there. All the guitars would come to me and I would do the full set-ups, inside and out, of the guitars and sell directly to blues musicians around the world (mainly EU but some North America, South America, Africa and Australia). It was hard work but a lovely project, particularly talking with all the musicians we were supplying.

Working with Michael Messer was delightful, he has such in depth knowledge of reso guitars from a professional musician's perspective and personally knew all the collectors and aficionados of these instruments. I learned a lot from him.

The pricing was something Michael and I agreed on when we very first met. We took the early 30s National catalogues and worked out what it would have felt like to by a Duolian and Style 0 in the 30s (it worked out around £500 to £600 in the UK) and set that as our retail price then worked backwards to budget. We wrote our business ethics the same day and made a list of essential features the guitars must have and desirable features we could compromise on if we needed to.

So, someone could do something similar with archtop guitars. You could pick something like the Epiphone Olympic and one of the 16" birch "catalogue" guitars of the 30s, do the detailed design drawings, then look for an OEM factory somewhere to build them. Then bring the guitars to one point for final set-up and direct sales (cutting out distribution and retail and using that margin to fund the hands on set up work and inevitable q/a write off of some guitars).

Anyone fancy having a go? I'm retired now but a few years back I may have considered the project. I actually moved from reso guitars to mountain dulcimers, running Bird Rock Dulcimers along the same concept, and found a couple of lovely instrument making family workshops in the Ozarks and Southern Appalachians to build for me, and I then sold directly to players in Europe.
Very interesting post, Robin.

Your methodology is similar to what's been commonly done here in the U.S. by several manufacturers. Gold Tone and Recording King would be two that most folks would be familiar with.

Your dulcimer example is the mirror image of that, building in the U.S. and marketing in Europe.

My thoughts on Taylor doing this are a reflection on bringing an arch top to market here that doesn't involve off-shore manufacture and also bringing the unique perspective of the arch top guitar a wider acceptance. Once in a while there are forces that heavily influence the market (like David Rawlings pulling the lowly Epi Olympic into the limelight) and I think the Taylor name could do the same thing.

The other thing that Taylor could bring to the table is a fresh look at the overall design. Andy Powers is the perfect candidate to create an arch top that could have a much improved acoustic signature, whatever that might be.
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  #18  
Old 03-19-2022, 09:41 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Originally Posted by icuker View Post
I'd love to see Taylor build a Gypsy Jazz guitar. I agree, they could use the 100 or even 200 series fairly easily and reasonably priced.
You might be 90% of the way there with a Taylor Academy 12 Nylon.
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  #19  
Old 03-26-2022, 07:57 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
You might be 90% of the way there with a Taylor Academy 12 Nylon...
Actually, the 16-inch 114ce's closer to the Gypsy size/shape - with a shallower body, slotted headstock, and Manouche-style tailpiece it could be a real contender in the entry-level market occupied by the Pac-Rim imports:

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  #20  
Old 04-11-2022, 05:34 AM
RJVB RJVB is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
Sounds basically like what Robert Godin did with the all-acoustic 5th Avenue which was, for all practical purposes, the latter-day counterpart of those postwar student archtops - it's just a shame that it never found the popularity it deserves...
Isn't that also what's going on behind the current Peerless/Monarch/Epiphone models?

Did I read correctly that this Taylor archtop would be an all-laminate? I know a laminate top is less of a deal on archtops than on flattops, but if Taylor do not currently market laminate-top models (do they?) I cannot really see them introduce one on an instrument that's supposed to be acoustic. If not only for marketing reasons.

They could still go for a pressed solid top though.
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  #21  
Old 04-11-2022, 07:01 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Originally Posted by RJVB View Post
Isn't that also what's going on behind the current Peerless/Monarch/Epiphone models?

Did I read correctly that this Taylor archtop would be an all-laminate? I know a laminate top is less of a deal on archtops than on flattops, but if Taylor do not currently market laminate-top models (do they?) I cannot really see them introduce one on an instrument that's supposed to be acoustic. If not only for marketing reasons.

They could still go for a pressed solid top though.
The hypothetical Taylor would have a 3 layer formed laminate arched top, preferably with F holes.

They already have a few models that utilize this layered construction for the back plate so it wouldn't be much of a reach to change the type of wood, accentuate the arch, and use the plates for the top. Given Andy's propensity for new bracing I don't think a couple of tone bars or even an X brace would slow him down significantly.

I think a layered laminate top could sound really good, especially with Taylor's ability to engineer acoustics that punch above their weight.
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  #22  
Old 04-11-2022, 08:10 AM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
...Given Andy's propensity for new bracing I don't think a couple of tone bars or even an X brace would slow him down significantly...
I'd look for something as-yet-untried and well-outside-the-box in the bracing department as well...
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  #23  
Old 04-11-2022, 09:08 AM
RJVB RJVB is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
The hypothetical Taylor would have a 3 layer formed laminate arched top, preferably with F holes.
But why? That would only have an advantage if they're aiming for a physical airguitar (i.e. an electric with air inside), to limit feedback. Not what I'd expect from Taylor.

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I'd look for something as-yet-untried and well-outside-the-box in the bracing department as well...
You mean like an exo-skeleton?
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  #24  
Old 04-11-2022, 02:35 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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...You mean like an exo-skeleton?
In case you're not aware (or may have forgotten) Garrison tried a similar concept about 20 years ago, with mixed tonal results - the good news being that it took a good deal of the stress off the top/sides/back which allowed them to use thinner woods, supposedly in the name of resonance (highly questionable IME, as they were some of the heaviest flattop guitars I've ever played). That said, a fair amount of downward pressure is necessary to create the "piston" motion and strong forward projection associated with an archtop (try one of those Big Band-era comp boxes with a set of 10's or 11's and you'll see what I mean), and while I've heard of some handbuilt luthier instruments using "flying" or cantilever braces, I suspect the economic constraints imposed on a (hopefully) mass-market archtop will preclude any such experiment; I'm thinking more along the lines of a variation on the V-Class concept, that will allow economy of production along with an idiosyncratic tone that appeals to converted flattop players and archtop lovers alike - similar to the discontinued Godin 5th Avenue acoustic archtop but with more cosmetic/tonal refinement...
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  #25  
Old 04-11-2022, 02:46 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
In case you're not aware (or may have forgotten) Garrison tried a similar concept about 20 years ago, with mixed tonal results - the good news being that it took a good deal of the stress off the top/sides/back which allowed them to use thinner woods, supposedly in the name of resonance (highly questionable IME, as they were some of the heaviest flattop guitars I've ever played). That said, a fair amount of downward pressure is necessary to create the "piston" motion and strong forward projection associated with an archtop (try one of those Big Band-era comp boxes with a set of 10's or 11's and you'll see what I mean), and while I've heard of some handbuilt luthier instruments using "flying" or cantilever braces, I suspect the economic constraints imposed on a (hopefully) mass-market archtop will preclude any such experiment; I'm thinking more along the lines of a variation on the V-Class concept, that will allow economy of production along with an idiosyncratic tone that appeals to converted flattop players and archtop lovers alike - similar to the discontinued Godin 5th Avenue acoustic archtop but with more cosmetic/tonal refinement...
If I was still in the guitar business I'd be talking to Godin about doing me a special run of 50+ x 5th Avenue acoustic archtops with their Bourbon Burst finish from the A&L line, and dark necks and backs, for the EU market. And I'd have them set-up out of the box with rosewood bridges and 13-56 pure nickel strings.
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  #26  
Old 04-11-2022, 03:49 PM
RJVB RJVB is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
In case you're not aware (or may have forgotten) Garrison tried a similar concept about 20 years ago, with mixed tonal results
I wasn't aware, but am not surprised (happens too often when I come up with this kind of "wild idea" ...)

X-brace but combined with a double-top (the only kind of laminate I'd want topside) and a very innovative design:
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  #27  
Old 04-11-2022, 07:42 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
If I was still in the guitar business I'd be talking to Godin about doing me a special run of 50+ x 5th Avenue acoustic archtops with their Bourbon Burst finish from the A&L line, and dark necks and backs, for the EU market. And I'd have them set-up out of the box with rosewood bridges and 13-56 pure nickel strings.
Why just the EU market - if you could bring them in around US $750 retail (shouldn't be hard, considering the Kingpin electric sells for $699 over here) and market them through a limited network of specialty dealers whose clientele could appreciate and understand what they're all about, IMO you'd need a run of 250 or so to start - the closest current competition is the Loar LH-600 at around $300 more (which, in spite of its all-carved construction, has a history of structural issues), and you'd be tapping into the visuals of the Eastman 600-Series archtops...
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  #28  
Old 04-12-2022, 02:45 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
Why just the EU market - if you could bring them in around US $750 retail (shouldn't be hard, considering the Kingpin electric sells for $699 over here) and market them through a limited network of specialty dealers whose clientele could appreciate and understand what they're all about, IMO you'd need a run of 250 or so to start - the closest current competition is the Loar LH-600 at around $300 more (which, in spite of its all-carved construction, has a history of structural issues), and you'd be tapping into the visuals of the Eastman 600-Series archtops...
Ahhhh!!!!!! STOP!!!

I've just been sitting here with a calculator in my hands pondering what up-front investment it would need to do a 250 guitar run, how I could handle US sales etc. etc. I need to put this one to bed and get on with my day job, which is being retired!!! (although I do seem to have inadvertently ended up with a very complex job as the caretaker MD for a cancer charity - not quite sure how they sneaked that one past me!).
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  #29  
Old 04-12-2022, 03:41 AM
RJVB RJVB is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
the closest current competition is the Loar LH-600 at around $300 more (which, in spite of its all-carved construction, has a history of structural issues)
The core issue there is (or used to be?) QC (or lack thereof). And that could have a lot to do with the asking price. Find a good one, and you get a *lot* of guitar for your money. (A lot of neck too, which is probably another reason why they're not more ubiquitous?)

EDIT: just saying that you'd need to be certain to budget for sufficient QC.
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  #30  
Old 04-12-2022, 07:51 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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But why? That would only have an advantage if they're aiming for a physical airguitar (i.e. an electric with air inside), to limit feedback. Not what I'd expect from Taylor.

You mean like an exo-skeleton?
Because they already do it successfully on some of their models that have unbraced backs. I personally think their unbraced back plates contribute to those models punching above their pay grade.

Nothing wrong with using the same process to form a top plate and then adding braces. It's been done successfully for years on some of the consumer arch tops.

Steve DeRosa's comments about re-design and coming up with a unique instrument are very on target with what I was trying to relate. Taylor can use their design savvy to produce a economically viable laminate arch top guitar with secret-sauce bracing that produces a new, but pleasing sound while using medium or even light gauge strings. Part of the problem I always have with "arch tops" is the need to string with heavier guage strings to drive the top.

Don't think for a minute that it can't be done, given Andy Powers being thrown into the formula.

I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope for a Godin solution. They might just try it but do something boneheaded like epoxying the necks on to cut costs.

Last edited by Rudy4; 04-12-2022 at 08:04 AM.
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