Experiences with guitar building courses

seangil · #1 09-11-2018, 07:13 PM

I've been interested in trying to build a guitar. I know that there are various DIY kits available for StewMac, LMI, and Martin and I have also seen week-long courses from Nazareth Guitar Institute and Blue Creek to build under the guidance of a luthier. I don't have any real experience with woodworking to speak of.

Does anyone have experience with these?

- What do you need to build one of the StewMac or Martin DIY kits? How much can this be done by a true novice?

- Has anyone taken classes with Nazareth Institute or Blue Creek? What was your experience? What questions should you ask when looking at a course?

Thanks!

Otterhound · #2 09-11-2018, 07:28 PM

I built my first acoustic under the tutelage of John Hall .
You will not go wrong by doing the same .
The only questions to ask are really of yourself . Everything else tends to be clearly explained .
My own opinion is that if you build your first with hands on guidance , your baseline of knowledge should be solid .
Yes , we do learn from our mistakes , but the original foundation will be your default position . It is to that place where you will return whenever encountering issues until you have gained enough experience to create your own foundation , so try to make it a good one . Even then , it will still remain .
Just my 2 cents .

ClaptonWannabe2 · #3 09-12-2018, 06:54 AM

Anybody in Texas do this? Have courses? I'm in the Houston area. I'm reading and YouTube'ing like crazy, but neck joints and neck angle geometry and thickness ing a soundboard without a 5 figure wood planer will confront me.

Also wondering how many sawmills or lumber yards are around and receptive to a guy walking in and borrowing a planer or jointer for 5 minutes?

ClaptonWannabe2 · #4 09-12-2018, 06:56 AM

I am thinking of going through LMI and buying the OBrien guitars kit. But going through eBay for top, back, and side woods. Just to keep costs down.

charles Tauber · #5 09-12-2018, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClaptonWannabe2

I am thinking of going through LMI and buying the OBrien guitars kit. But going through eBay for top, back, and side woods. Just to keep costs down.

What is the "Obrien guitars kit"? I didn't see it listed or identified on the LMI site. What does the kit include that you would buy the major components from Ebay?

Quote:

I'm reading and YouTube'ing like crazy, but neck joints and neck angle geometry and thickness ing a soundboard without a 5 figure wood planer will confront me.

A wood planer is unnecessary. Nice to have, but not necessary and unrelated to obtaining the desired neck angle. Most wood planers will ruin thin figured wood. Most guitar woods are thickness sanded or hand planed.

Quote:

Also wondering how many sawmills or lumber yards are around and receptive to a guy walking in and borrowing a planer or jointer for 5 minutes?

Likely, none, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is liability. Most will, for a fee, do the mill work. That is a viable option for general mill work, but, generally, not for thicknessing tops, backs or sides.

You are wanting to build an object out of wood. At some point, you have to come to terms with the fact that to build such an object you are going to have to obtain some knowledge and skills at working (and finishing) wood. There is no way around that. If you aren't willing to do that, buy an already finished guitar and spend your efforts doing something else. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there's no way around that. It takes a lot of time, effort and some money to develop the knowledge and skills.

A kit can be a good way to get started, reducing, but not eliminating, the level of woodworking knowledge and skill required. (My first instrument was a dulcimer kit, with pre-bent sides, slotted fingerboard and pre-cut parts: mostly, it was an exercise in clamping, gluing and assembling.) You'll have to assess for yourself how much time and effort you are willing to invest in learning guitar making and the woodworking skills upon which much of it relies.

Mdinterman · #6 09-12-2018, 08:09 AM

I hope this thread gets a lot of responses. I am also going to be building. Schools I am considering include, O’Brien Guitars (really like his YouTube videos), Blues Creek Guitars, Nazareth Guitars, Hawkins Guitars in Va Beach which is close to my home, Charles Fox in Portland, Eric Schaefer Guitars, Whetstone School of Luthiers, William Cumpiano. I was also very interested in Finnocchio Guitars but it appears Frank has discontinued his school.

I did some research about a year and a half ago (cost estimates may not be accurate) and I’ll try and briefly summarize. Many of these schools are far away from my home in Williamsburg Va. so cost estimates include airfare, rental car, lodging and meals.

Charles Fox in Portland OR - He has two courses. One is a 5 day demo only course (no actual student building) which would run about $3100, $1200 for the course the rest travel from Va. He has a 2 week hands on course where you build a complete steel string but not finished. Course is $3,800 + materials. Would probably run me close to $8 K. Good testimonials on his classes.

William Cumpiano in Morthhampton MA - Have fun getting in. He is booked for more than a year. 2 week course at $6 K plus materials. Would run me close to $10 K. Great reputation, though. His book is excellent and considered one of the best resources out there.

Finnocchio Guitars - Not currently offering classes but his reviews are excellent. That was a 1 week class for about $4,700 for me cuz I could drive there. This WAS high on my list but like I said, looks like he has retired.

Nazareth Guitars in Nazareth PA - Right near Martin factory. 7 day course. Course is $2,875. I think these guys worked for Martin in the past. Seems like a decent course but reviews were not abundantly available.

O’Brien Guitars in Parker CO - Just check out Robbie’s YouTube videos. Seems like a super nice guy and very knowledgeable. He offers 2 options: a 7 day 1 on 1 for $4,200 plus materials and a 2 student option at $3,000 plus materials. He uses a kit which I’d rather not do. But this includes French polishing finish. Probably would run me around $5,500. This would be at the top of my list if it weren’t for the kit angle. I want to build from scratch.

Eric Schaefer Guitars in Bernvill PA - his YouTube videos are pretty good so I think he’d be a pretty good instructor. Major drawback is you don’t bend the sides nor joint the back in his classes so that is a major drawback. Very inexpensive 8 day, Saturday to Saturday class at $1,950 plus materials. Also looks like OM builds only.

Whetstone School of Lutherie in Brattleboro VT - excellent testimonials. 2 week course at $2,900 plus materials. Total cost to me would be around $7,500. Probably a great option for New England folks.

Hawkins Guitars in Va Beach - I have visited Brian and he is a super nice guy and runs a small shop in Va Beach so I could drive back and forth. He is also flexible so I could do this self-paced, so to speak. Course cost is $5,100 plus materials. I have seen some of his work and it is impressive. This is currently my top option at this point.

Blues Creek Guitars in PA - His site just says “call for information” and I haven’t called him. But will before I make a decision.

If anyone has any input on this to add, I’d love to hear more. Especially if you attended any of these (or other) building classes. It would be really cool if some Forum members like Charles Tauber offered courses.

charles Tauber · #7 09-12-2018, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdinterman

It would be really cool if some Forum members like Charles Tauber offered courses.

It would be, but I'm not seeing it in my future. There are already several skilled makers in my area who are offering instruction. As for "on-line" instruction, I can't imagine doing better than what Robbie O'Brien is currently offering.

In 1976, I started attempting to make guitar parts in my high school wood shop class. For reference, I used the only two books available in English on the subject, both by Sloane. I still have the parts I made and they are crude.

Realizing that that wasn't going to get me to where I wanted to go, in 1977, after graduating from high school, I spent six weeks with Charles Fox and George Morris at the Guitar Research and Design Center in Vermont. At that time, a time before the internet, Youtube and Google, it was the only public school of guitar making in North America. It was a tremendous experience.

Charles Fox eventually closed the school. After some time, he reemerged, again offering guitar making instruction, but in a shorter format and in new locations. I'd highly recommend him.

Since the '70's, there has been a huge increase in interest in guitar making. Many books have been written on the subject, many courses are offered by many different makers and, of course, there's the internet and all it has to offer.

When I started making guitars, I could count on two hands the number of guitar makers in my area (southern Ontario, Canada). Now, it seems, there is nearly one on every street corner. Last summer, I met a fellow who had taken a guitar-making course the previous summer. He was planning to open a guitar-making class later this year. I can't count on two hands the number of guitar-making schools there are now in my area. Not all of them are created equal.

The bottom line is that there are now many skilled makers offering instruction - and some who are "less skilled". Any of the skilled makers offering instruction can effectively teach you the basics of guitar making. There are, however, things that differentiate one teacher/school from another.

As you've already noted, some start with kits. (Does a kit mean that parts are pre-cut, sides pre-bent, etc., or does it simply mean that materials have been preselected, un-bent, un-shaped...?) Some use a large number of jigs and fixtures for use with machinery and greater "automation", while others are much more largely handtool and "one-off" oriented. Some use bolt-on neck arrangements while others use more traditional neck joints. (If I was starting out now, I'd want to learn to use a bolt-on method that includes an integral neck tilt mechanism - I see that as the future. Not to be confused with Taylor's shim system of bolt-on necks.) Some use molds to hold the bodies during assembly, some build free-form. Some use sprayed "industrial" finishes while others use lower-tech solutions like French polish or brushed finishes. (Some schools don't including finishing as part of the class - a big omission in my opinion, since finishing is such an important part of guitar making.)

The choice of school/teacher depends, in part, on where you want to go with what you learn. Do you want to make a full-time living out of it? Is it a hobby? Are you looking for speed in making the same thing repetitively, or are you looking for flexibility allowing you to make something different each time? And so on.

I should also add that, ideally, the teacher/school you choose should make guitars that are similar to what you want to make. That is, similar in "style" - size, shape, design - as well as target sound characteristics. For example, I specialize in small-bodied, "finger style" guitars - classical and steel string. I do not make dreadnaught or jumbo guitars - nor do I make flamenco guitars, a different animal. If you wanted to make large-bodied guitars for, say, flat picking, I'd be the wrong guy to teach you.

Thanks for indulging me.

Charles

phavriluk · #8 09-12-2018, 04:07 PM

OP ought to give Dave Nichols a call and see what's on offer from his shop (Custom Pearl Inlay). I did, a few years ago, and I cherish the time spent and the experience I had. Dave's shop is in Malone, New York, upstate, about midway between Ottawa and Montreal, the two biggest urban areas nearby.

Otterhound · #9 09-12-2018, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClaptonWannabe2

Anybody in Texas do this? Have courses? I'm in the Houston area. I'm reading and YouTube'ing like crazy, but neck joints and neck angle geometry and thickness ing a soundboard without a 5 figure wood planer will confront me.

Also wondering how many sawmills or lumber yards are around and receptive to a guy walking in and borrowing a planer or jointer for 5 minutes?

You may be able to find a Woodcraft or Rockler store near you that will rent you time ..... I believe that they do . There may be a nearby furniture guy as well that would be willing to assist you with certain operations involving machinery .
The worst that can happen if you ask is to be told no .

ClaptonWannabe2 · #10 09-13-2018, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

What is the "Obrien guitars kit"? I didn't see it listed or identified on the LMI site. What does the kit include that you would buy the major components from Ebay?

I forgot my logon. You have to log into their site to pull up the individual kits. his youtube channel mentions it as well. Anyway, I feel I could get back, sides, and top off of ebay for at least 100 bucks less. Eveything else I'd buy from LMI

A wood planer is unnecessary. Nice to have, but not necessary and unrelated to obtaining the desired neck angle. Most wood planers will ruin thin figured wood. Most guitar woods are thickness sanded or hand planed.

Good to know.

Likely, none, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is liability. Most will, for a fee, do the mill work. That is a viable option for general mill work, but, generally, not for thicknessing tops, backs or sides.

Did not think so. I'd like to do the work myself, but each one of the youtube videos I've seen to this point are great.... UNTIL, at some point they break out a 4-5 figure machine to do some work.

You are wanting to build an object out of wood. At some point, you have to come to terms with the fact that to build such an object you are going to have to obtain some knowledge and skills at working (and finishing) wood. There is no way around that. If you aren't willing to do that, buy an already finished guitar and spend your efforts doing something else. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there's no way around that. It takes a lot of time, effort and some money to develop the knowledge and skills.

A kit can be a good way to get started, reducing, but not eliminating, the level of woodworking knowledge and skill required. (My first instrument was a dulcimer kit, with pre-bent sides, slotted fingerboard and pre-cut parts: mostly, it was an exercise in clamping, gluing and assembling.) You'll have to assess for yourself how much time and effort you are willing to invest in learning guitar making and the woodworking skills upon which much of it relies.

Just going to read the Cumpiano (spelling?) book and go from there. To this point I have only blown $29 on the book if I never do it. My worst case scenario is blowing a grand and realizing that that $$$ could have been a nice used guitar. Or the down payment on a Martin OOO-28EC, which is what this is all about building a facsimile of in the first place.

charles Tauber · #11 09-13-2018, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClaptonWannabe2

Or the down payment on a Martin OOO-28EC, which is what this is all about building a facsimile of in the first place.

Unless you want the experience for its own sake, rather than what the experience produces - i.e. a 000-28CE copy - you'll likely be better off just buying the guitar you want to have.

As someone on the forum once said, "Making a guitar to save money on a guitar is like buying a boat to save money on fish."

ruby50 · #12 09-13-2018, 06:56 PM

I could not afford $3-5000 for a class. I bought a kit from John Hall at Blues Creek, watched some of his videos, and bought Bill Corey's book:

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guid...1-1&ref=sr_1_1

The only problem I ran across is trying to understand how to treat the upper bout to ensure that the neck is pointed correctly, but it came clear while doing it. I bought a more elaborate kit (purfling, fretboard binding, inlays) for my second one, and then with each successive one I did a couple of major steps on own - bend sides, make neck, cut frets, make kerfed lining, etc. After 4 I was scratch building.

I suggest a $500 kit instead of a week with a luthier. Probably take less than 60 hours to assemble (finishing is extra!) See what happens, then you will know if you need the complete formal education.

I made a radius beam out of a scrap 2X4 instead of a dish, and am still using it 8 later. I have a cabinetmaker in town who puts all the wood I need for an instrument through his enormous surface sander for $20 - takes 20 minutes.
All you need are small plane, a couple of chisels, a couple of files, some measuring tools, and a lot of clamps, some specialized.

Ask around on this and other forums - there are home building luthiers everywhere and they would love to talk to you (I'm in Maryland)

Taylor814 · #13 02-01-2023, 12:27 PM

I'm currently working my way through Robbie O'Brien's classical guitar course, although I haven't started to build yet. Prior to that I made a few ukulele kits from Stew Mac, and if you have absolutely no woodworking skills and you're not entirely sure this is something you want to do, I think it's a good place to start. They're inexpensive and require very little tools beyond a good fret cutter, some files and maybe a drill. The back and sides are laminate, but you can get solid mahogany or spruce tops. The wood is all pre-thicknessed and the the non-tapered sides are pre-bent. The design is quite simple with no back radiusing required, and with a simple dowel and glue neck attachment. If you want to customize a bit with real kerfing (instead of the thin spruce strips) or addition of binding (if you have a router), that is definitely possible. You can get a definite feel for the steps involved in putting together a guitar without the investment (I'm half way through my initial watching of the O'Brien course and I'm keeping an Excel spreadsheet for the estimated cost of building his LMII kit as he describes. I'm already up to $4000).

mercy · #14 02-04-2023, 08:20 AM

Charles and I dont always agree but here we do. If you are really into guitars, building one will give you the insight and appreciation you would never have otherwise.
If you want a guitar, buy one.
There are people that have built successful guitars on their own but Im not one of them. I have built and Im good at finishing but being good at building may well be a developmental process for you too. So multiply your cost of materials 5 times as well as tool costs. As you build you will see that specialized tools really help. The idea of starting with a Uke is not as simple as it sounds so that is a good place to start.
I have a Stewmac nut vise. I could put nuts in my bench vise but the nut vise is so much better. That illustration goes for every segment of the build.
You could gamble that you would produce a good guitar the 1st time around or just determine that what you want is the experience.

Fathand · #15 02-04-2023, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClaptonWannabe2

My worst case scenario is blowing a grand and realizing that that $$$ could have been a nice used guitar. Or the down payment on a Martin OOO-28EC, which is what this is all about building a facsimile of in the first place.

I recently completeted a 000-28EC inspired build, materials cost below $300 but I have tools to turn wood into guitar parts.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/194462...7720299310279/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/194462...7720299310279/

Ordering kits from the US is problematic for me in Canada, but if you don't have a lot of tools, this kit from LMI at $599 may be a good way to go. You could always add an ebony board and bridge if it's not close enough to the EC model for you.
https://www.lmii.com/discounted-read...y-to-ship.html