Condenser Microphone Suggestion

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by moon

I think the way to move the discussion on was to get more specific, ie start listening to actual samples of particular mics. People can make up their own minds after that

Moon,

I agree with you that this sounds like a good idea.

In practice there are several problems. First, the listener doesn't know what the source sounds like and/or if the mic (and/or preamp) is coloring the sound. (I know some here reject the idea that preamps color the sound of a mic. I've heard it. I have no samples to post. If you don't want to believe me on this one, it's up to you, but the world is not flat and preamps can very definitely change the sound.)

Second, some people presume they can make sense out of what they hear. I get emails all the time from people asking me to help them compare two or more mics. Because I have listened to a lot more mics than most people and over a longer period of time, I can zero in on things most people don't hear.

Unless they are actually suffering hearing loss, they do hear it, but can't process what they hear so that it becomes useful data. Sure, you can get a general idea; this one's brighter, that one's boomier, but there's a lot more to it once you get into it.

I've been trying to come up with an analogy. This morning, driving with a stick and clutch seem appropriate. What's the big deal, it's a stick and a pedal, anyone can depress a pedal and move a stick, right?

Maybe some here don't need that depth of information. Fine, then we can all stop talking about most top shelf mics, period, because that's where the difference lies.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[frankhond]

Have you seen this (probably someone already posted it but I do it again)? A comparison of 20-something mics, strumming a guitar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04vdECGx-8k

If we can agree that there might be at least some value in such a comparison, the main point that strikes me is: all of them sound perfectly ok for a youtube video with a strummed guitar. The main differences for me is between mic types, for example all the ribbons make the guitar sound a lot softer in attack (but probably you could get a lot of the punch back with a different plectrum, so there you go).

The second video that I find interesting is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0QxlXaMRbw

The guy uses a cheapish golden age project mk3 active ribbon mic for the voice, and a AT4050 for the guitar. For a youtube video, it all sounds pretty good. But especially for the vocal, I think the close mic placement gives most of the effect, my guess is that many other mics could have gotten a similar result. Also it helps that the guy really can sing

My conclusion is that for home recording with youtube as your main target, almost ANY microphone over, say, 200 bucks (and probably several under that price) will do just fine.

Still, the microphones DO sound different, and more importantly, have different pick up patterns and sensitivity, which seems to be an important factor for an untreated living room like mine.

So the discussions about mics do make sense, but for me, the "color" of a mic seems to be relatively unimportant in this context, compared to, for example, how close you can get without proximity effect, room rejection capability etc.

Personally I have now become interested in ribbon mics because they have strong off-axis rejection (most are apparently figure 8) and "two sides" with slightly different tonal character.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by frankhond

So the discussions about mics do make sense, but for me, the "color" of a mic seems to be relatively unimportant in this context, compared to, for example, how close you can get without proximity effect, room rejection capability etc.

Exactly. No I know of one claims there's zero difference. But it's like flavors of ice cream - they all can be good, at least to someone. The mic's bright? Might be great on a dark guitar. Has a high frequency dip? Great for a guitar with too much going on on top. To me, the only thing that makes a mic categorically bad would be noise, (and even that's just for my application because guitars are relatively quiet, someone else might not care). Everything else is a matter of taste, and in most cases, it's a pretty subtle difference in taste, since you can often make changes by mic placement that overcome the raw difference.

The cool thing about recording is that the only thing that matters in the end is the final sound. No listener will really care what gear you used to get there, if it's good. And they also won't care how good the gear was if the result is bad!.

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by frankhond

If we can agree that there might be at least some value in such a comparison, the main point that strikes me is: all of them sound perfectly ok for a youtube video with a strummed guitar.

Given, Frank, but I set my sight higher than YouTube on a lap top. Knock yourself out, though. If you can't hear a difference, or it doesn't matter to you, then sleep well.

Regards,

Ty Ford

PS: not a particularly nice sounding guitar

[frankhond]

Ty, of course you do. I guess this is the dilemma when someone posts "what mic should I get for acoustic guitar to record in my relatively untreated living room".

My point is that the discussions here (and on other forums like gearslutz) are often about the "color" and "quality" of the microphone, and then (like in this thread) whether this matters or not.

Something that comes up less often is "functionality". Like the fact that the ev re20 has very little proximity effect so it can be placed very close to the source, which makes it good at rejecting room noise. This kind of info is more useful to me right now, and possibly to many other posters with the "which mic for acoustic in the livingroom/garage" question.

[Ty Ford]

Ty, of course you do. I guess this is the dilemma when someone posts "what mic should I get for acoustic guitar to record in my relatively untreated living room".

>>Frank, exactly right and my answer to the above question is, it really doesn't make a lot of difference there because the acoustical environment will make almost any mic sound bad. Instead, I'd invest in a K&K Pure Mini. Three piezo pickups that get mounted inside the guitar on the bridge plate. No batteries, no controls, straight out to the end pin jack.

My point is that the discussions here (and on other forums like gearslutz) are often about the "color" and "quality" of the microphone, and then (like in this thread) whether this matters or not.

>>OK, sure it matters, if you're not in an untreated living room. If the guitar itself is nasty sounding, it either doesn't matter or it matters a LOT! The right mic can tame most (but not all) nasty guitars.

Something that comes up less often is "functionality". Like the fact that the ev re20 has very little proximity effect so it can be placed very close to the source, which makes it good at rejecting room noise. This kind of info is more useful to me right now, and possibly to many other posters with the "which mic for acoustic in the livingroom/garage" question.

>>The RE20 does this because of its "variable d" design. There's a slot on the body through which the sound enters in different place to get to the back of the diaphragm. EV RE15 and RE16 also have this feature. Nobody talks about them.

They are dynamics, so they don't have the top end of a condenser, but they'll work just fine.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Because I have listened to a lot more mics than most people and over a longer period of time, I can zero in on things most people don't hear.

Unless they are actually suffering hearing loss, they do hear it, but can't process what they hear so that it becomes useful data. Sure, you can get a general idea; this one's brighter, that one's boomier, but there's a lot more to it once you get into it.

Ty, I think I'm seconding moon here, but one way to make this conversation really useful might be for you, with your experience comparing mics, to do some "zeroing in" here, and point out what people should be hearing. You could pick a couple of mics from that 20-mic test (tho unfortunately different performances an different mic positions). Alternately, explain what you hear in the simultaneous, identical chain recordings I posted earlier. I also have 2 other versions of that test, pairing different sets of mics. I could post all six tests if you're game, and you could explain what you listen for in them, and how that would affect your choice of which mic to use.

[SeamusORiley]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Lots of people have a clue, but for every question, you can get at least 10 conflicting answers to almost everything :-) Good for educating yourself on the issues, but after a while it probably is better to go fish for yourself, even if only to generate better questions.

From a beginner's point of view, I have learned that the right piece of gear is "the other one." Or, it is the one I didn't buy.

There is so much to digest!

Looking back, I have more appreciation for the answers that included questions, such as "what are your goals in recording?"

But there is enough in this thread to allow me to line up several mics in my price range and either research or attempt to locate for sampling.

I have also found that I get diverted each time I go to listen to a sample, or follow a link from a signature, and get lost listening to the fine music put online. It discourages me, on one hand, as I am not in the same ball park, but also encourages me to press on, practice and emphasize my strengths. I'll try to find a mic that will work with both acoustic guitar and vocals, and won't find one that takes poor vocals and makes them sound fine!

Great thread.

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Ty, I think I'm seconding moon here, but one way to make this conversation really useful might be for you, with your experience comparing mics, to do some "zeroing in" here, and point out what people should be hearing. You could pick a couple of mics from that 20-mic test (tho unfortunately different performances an different mic positions). Alternately, explain what you hear in the simultaneous, identical chain recordings I posted earlier. I also have 2 other versions of that test, pairing different sets of mics. I could post all six tests if you're game, and you could explain what you listen for in them, and how that would affect your choice of which mic to use.

I listen for distortion, selfnoise, off-axis phase trash, beaminess in the pattern, frequency response, headroom and probably a few other things. That's where I'd start if I were on the path to learn more. The youtube posts are relatively useless to me because of the data compression on the audio. There were one or two pretty gnarly sounding mismatches for that guitar.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

I listen for distortion, selfnoise, off-axis phase trash, beaminess in the pattern, frequency response, headroom and probably a few other things. That's where I'd start if I were on the path to learn more. The youtube posts are relatively useless to me because of the data compression on the audio. There were one or two pretty gnarly sounding mismatches for that guitar.

I was referring to the 20+ studio recordings, WAV files, not You Tube. Mine are also not You Tube. I think the originals were recorded at 24/96, and can be posted directly, no You Tube conversions.

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I was referring to the 20+ studio recordings, WAV files, not You Tube. Mine are also not You Tube. I think the originals were recorded at 24/96, and can be posted directly, no You Tube conversions.

OK, but I can't do a real assessment listening to files. There's too much in the process that sticking a mic in front of a guitar doesn't convey. I once EQed a RE20 to sound just like a U 87 for that source (voice) at that moment in that space. If one of a number of things change, that all goes out the window.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

I once EQed a RE20 to sound just like a U 87 for that source (voice) at that moment in that space. If one of a number of things change, that all goes out the window.

That's been my main point thru out this discussion, of course! There are so many variables, the difference between mics can easily be overidden by other factors. So the idea of "just use this mic, and you'll sound great, but don't use that one because you'll sound bad" doesn't really work out in practice.

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

That's been my main point thru out this discussion, of course! There are so many variables, the difference between mics can easily be overidden by other factors. So the idea of "just use this mic, and you'll sound great, but don't use that one because you'll sound bad" doesn't really work out in practice.

Doug,

I said I could do it. I didn't say you could do it. And I said for that moment in time, not in general use.

Ty Ford

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Doug,

I said I could do it. I didn't say you could do it. And I said for that moment in time, not in general use.

Hmm, every recording is a moment in time, and every situation's different. No, you can't in general turn an RE20 into a U87, but apparently you were able to respond to a situation and make a mic sound the way you wanted. I assume it's possible that others, in some situations, could also tweak the sound to achieve results they like, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Doug Young]

I know we keep veering off course, but let me make one more stab at trying to answer the original question. My opinions only, but I don't think they're *that* controversial :-)

First, I assume you're talking about making decent home recordings, good enough to post to You Tube, share with friends, maybe even release a home-grown CD. Not making a major label recording. Correct me if this is wrong. The question is "what mic should I get", but I am also assuming the underlying question is "how can I make a better sounding recording?", Again, I may be wrong here, so correct me if I'm misunderstanding.

1st, you need to get rid of the noise problem, that's a deal-breaker, for anything but the most casual recording.

2nd, the room acoustics may be an issue. I'm taking your word that it's a reflective environment that doesn't sound good. There are lots of ways to deal with this, from full-blown room treatment, to very simple things to reduce reflections, from the pillows Bob1131 describes in a different thread, to Fran Guidry's panels, to just trying different spots in the room. Some mic choices may help here, too. Directional (cardiod) mics, or even hypercardiod will help. Dynamic mics that are less sensitive may help. And close micing will probably help. That implies a mic that isn't overly prone to proximity effect (making the sound bassier as you get closer).

3rd comes mic choice. Here, there are literally hundreds of mics to choose from, and everyone has their favorites. Much of the debate here has been about how different various mics sound. I think (and this is where the controversy comes in, I guess) that this is somewhat beside the point, because 1) no one knows what your guitar sounds like, and you actually have three very different sounding guitars, 2) you might find that a mic someone else hates just happens to sound good on your guitar, and 3) there are so many things you can do to affect the sound with any given mic, that the actual mic choice doesn't matter nearly as much as learning what to do with it.

You haven't been recording in stereo, so you have a ton to learn about mic placement, stereo mic patterns and so on. You can achieve very different sounds by what mic pattern you choose (X/Y, ORTF, Spaced pairs, many others), as well as where you place the mics on the guitar (Put on headphones and move a mic around the guitar as someone plays - it can sound like a wah-wah pedal, as the tone varies spot by spot). You can also get different sounds by how close or far away you place the mic, and by what angle the mic is at, and so on.

Given all this, my advice is to pick a mic in your budget range - there have been many floated here as possibilities and get started. If budget is not a limitation, you won't go wrong getting something "good". Schoeps CM6/MK41s are a "lifetime" mic, and I'm sure Ty would agree here, at least. Otherwise, I'd suggest getting started on the budget end, so you can learn more before you dive into the endless path of mic upgrades many of us have gone thru. Lots of people seem to like the ADK A6, and you can hear the sample I posted of the lowly and cheap AT2020, which I could certainly find acceptable. To me, any of these would get you started without breaking the bank. Even a Zoom H4n, with its built in mics (which are below the level many of the contributors to this thread would be willing to stoop) can sound quite good, and give you something to learn from, and you might even be happy with it long term depending on your ears, taste, and goals.

But my best advice on mics is to record in stereo, and get started with something, anything. Learn about mic placement, positions, and what to do with the mic to achieve different sounds, and then as some point, you may come back with a more specific question, where it would make more sense to start looking at the nuances of different mics and seeing if they move you another inch along the path.