Application of different cardioid patterns (for solo fingerstyle recording)

[SprintBob]

Are there any advantages to using a condenser microphone with super cardioid or hypercardioid polar patterns versus a condenser mic with cardioid pattern for recording solo fingerstyle acoustic?

I would tend to believe if you have a less than optimal recording environment, the hyper and super cardioid options might work better.

Thanks for taking a look and any feedback!

[Doug Young]

In theory, the tighter patterns will pick up less room sound. Reality may not be so obvious, tho. For one thing, those patterns really only apply to certain frequencies. Some mics show more complex graphs of patterns at different frequencies, but rarely are fully detailed. Most mics are omni at low frequencies, for example. And wider patterns have less proximity response, so you can mic closer. For example, you could place an omni mic literally 2 inches from your guitar and it could sound fine. At that distance, your guitar to room ratio would be greatly reduced, so ironically, you might get less room sound with an omni than a cardiod!

I have Schoeps MK41s hypers, and have compared them to MK4s cardiods and heard very little difference. I've also compared to the MK2 (omnis) I have. There is a difference, mostly in the stereo image, I think, but not as dramatic as you might expect. Another fun exercise is the Townsend mics, which let you vary the polar pattern after the fact. I almost always end up preferring hyper or super patterns with those, as the stereo image seems sharper. But that's all emulated (you can also muck with proximity effect, off-axis response, etc), so it's not entirely clear what I'm really hearing and why I'm preferring those, I mostly just turn dials till I like what I hear :-)

[standup]

Try it and see.

I have Oktava 012 mics, and comparing them on acoustic guitar the omni pattern sounded best, cardioid was second and hypercardioid a distant third.

But Oktava is also famous for inconsistent manufacturing.

[DupleMeter]

Keep in mind that super & hyper cardioids have a pronounced rear lobe that picks up sound directly behind them, with nulls 30° off axis from that rear lobe.

The trick with polar patterns is to know where the nulls are & how to use them to your advantage.

My opinion from 30 years of recording is that you’re best with a cardioid pattern for home recording. Your only dealing with sounds from the front. All other polar patterns require more care & experience in untreated rooms.

Home recordists would benefit more from stackable Gobos than other options when trying to improve the recorded sound in the room. ATS Acoustics makes these things called “Stackers” that are a good investment, if you’re trying to get better home recordings. The big plus is that they are portable & can be put in a closet when not in use. Keeps our significant others happy…because any conversation that starts with “honey, I’m going to cover 20% off the flat surfaces in this room with broadband absorbers” usually doesn’t end well [emoji6]

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

ATS Acoustics makes these things called “Stackers” ..[emoji6]

Thank the tip on these. They look great.

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

any conversation that starts with “honey, I’m going to cover 20% off the flat surfaces in this room with broadband absorbers” usually doesn’t end well [emoji6]

True that. Just had the conversation because I want to start doing vids for other people this year using our living room

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Keep in mind that super & hyper cardioids have a pronounced rear lobe that picks up sound directly behind them, with nulls 30° off axis from that rear lobe.

The trick with polar patterns is to know where the nulls are & how to use them to your advantage.

My opinion from 30 years of recording is that you’re best with a cardioid pattern for home recording. Your only dealing with sounds from the front. All other polar patterns require more care & experience in untreated rooms.

Home recordists would benefit more from stackable Gobos than other options when trying to improve the recorded sound in the room. ATS Acoustics makes these things called “Stackers” that are a good investment, if you’re trying to get better home recordings. The big plus is that they are portable & can be put in a closet when not in use. Keeps our significant others happy…because any conversation that starts with “honey, I’m going to cover 20% off the flat surfaces in this room with broadband absorbers” usually doesn’t end well [emoji6]

I purchased two 24" wide x 72" high x 2" thick acoustic panels with wooden frames that are hinged together. I set them up as a shallow vee and place my mics within that vee. The idea is that the sound from my guitar goes to the mics and the panels minimize any reflection back. I think they work well.

My original question about cardioid versus hyper and super cardioid pertained to if I could improve this setup further.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

I purchased two 24" wide x 72" high x 2" thick acoustic panels with wooden frames that are hinged together. I set them up as a shallow vee and place my mics within that vee. The idea is that the sound from my guitar goes to the mics and the panels minimize any reflection back. I think they work well.

My original question about cardioid versus hyper and super cardioid pertained to if I could improve this setup further.

If the rear lobe faces into the corner of those hinged panels, it will almost definitely not be better. If you can give it 8-10’ behind the rear lobe you may find it better.

And in that case you just want the gobos on either side of the mic/source, not in front/behind.

For a home setup, it’s much preferable to stick with cardioid mics. The benefit of other polar patterns require a larger & better isolated space than most homes will provide.

Better yet. Save your money. Don’t buy any mics & just get a couple hours of studio time when you’re ready to record. You get much better equipment, a good sized & good sounding live room, and an experienced engineer who will get you a better recording than you’ll ever be able to achieve at home.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Better yet. Save your money. Don’t buy any mics & just get a couple hours of studio time when you’re ready to record. You get much better equipment, a good sized & good sounding live room, and an experienced engineer who will get you a better recording than you’ll ever be able to achieve at home.

I think going into a pro studio can be in invaluable learning experience, and it is probably the most cost-effective solution to recording in most cases. Highly recommended. But my studio experiences over the years have had the opposite motivation for me in terms of the "what you'll ever be able to achieve" aspect. I came away each time feeling like even tho the gear, the room and the engineering expertise were undeniably better than my own, I could most likely do better myself, simply because of the ability to spend as much time as I wanted on a home recording, and because I was pickier about the the sound I got than most engineers, especially for solo instrumental guitar, like I do, and like SprintBob is doing. It's just not what most recording studio's bread and butter is (tho you can certainly find some that do have the relevant experience). Plus I enjoy the challenge, and like the freedom to be as picky as I want about the performance without someone else watching over my shoulder. I do continue to learn from experiences in other studios, and am always trying to learn from others about mixing and mastering, and so on. It's a never ending process. It also does help that I'm fortunate that my spouse actually encouraged me to create a good acoustic space, so I'm not having "that" conversation.

In any case, for solo guitar, I do think one can achieve excellent results at home - you might be surprised how many commercial solo fingerstyle releases are recorded at home with modest gear, and even in less-than-ideal acoustic spaces - this isn't generally the realm of big buck studios. You do have to spend some time on the learning curve, and especially may need to be prepared to deal with room acoustics one way or another. But a visit to a local studio can pay off huge dividends as a learning experience and help in identifying where your home setup falls short. And if you aren't really into the commitment required to record at home, it's definitely the easier route.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

....Better yet. Save your money. Don’t buy any mics & just get a couple hours of studio time when you’re ready to record. You get much better equipment, a good sized & good sounding live room, and an experienced engineer who will get you a better recording than you’ll ever be able to achieve at home.

I like to make videos and recordings for fun at home, but for albums I still tend to agree with this. I just made a second duo album with Jamie Stillway last week, and I still really like having a day or two on the calendar as a deadline to have the tunes have to be together by. And I like getting out (especially out of town) of the house, and having someone else hit record.. I’m planning a solo record for this fall and I’m looking at a studio with a nice big room that I can rent for the day and be alone to everything myself too.. All that said, we’re talking about moving in the next couple years and finding a house with home studio potential is definitely on my mind..

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by min7b5

All that said, we’re talking about moving in the next couple years and finding a house with home studio potential is definitely on my mind..

My wife &I have been talking about moving & getting a place with an out building (a barn or carriage house) that we can convert into a studio.

Even though I manage a commercial studio, I’d like to have a legit studio off my own.

I do have our basement setup as a very nice mix room so I can work from home. It’s just not ideal if I want to track things. There’s no separate live room. Plus, if I want to record drums, the ceilings are a little too low. You need a good 12-15’ for a good drum sound IME.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think going into a pro studio can be in invaluable learning experience, and it is probably the most cost-effective solution to recording in most cases. Highly recommended. But my studio experiences over the years have had the opposite motivation for me in terms of the "what you'll ever be able to achieve" aspect. I came away each time feeling like even tho the gear, the room and the engineering expertise were undeniably better than my own, I could most likely do better myself, simply because of the ability to spend as much time as I wanted on a home recording, and because I was pickier about the the sound I got than most engineers, especially for solo instrumental guitar, like I do, and like SprintBob is doing. It's just not what most recording studio's bread and butter is (tho you can certainly find some that do have the relevant experience). Plus I enjoy the challenge, and like the freedom to be as picky as I want about the performance without someone else watching over my shoulder. I do continue to learn from experiences in other studios, and am always trying to learn from others about mixing and mastering, and so on. It's a never ending process. It also does help that I'm fortunate that my spouse actually encouraged me to create a good acoustic space, so I'm not having "that" conversation.

In any case, for solo guitar, I do think one can achieve excellent results at home - you might be surprised how many commercial solo fingerstyle releases are recorded at home with modest gear, and even in less-than-ideal acoustic spaces - this isn't generally the realm of big buck studios. You do have to spend some time on the learning curve, and especially may need to be prepared to deal with room acoustics one way or another. But a visit to a local studio can pay off huge dividends as a learning experience and help in identifying where your home setup falls short. And if you aren't really into the commitment required to record at home, it's definitely the easier route.

I agree once you have made the investment in good gear and room acoustics.