Care and feeding a 12 string guitar

[cliff_the_stiff]

Originally Posted by neilca

I had purchased a used Taylor 150e. The neck was badly concave and action was high, so I returned the guitar. I have since bought a D'Angelico 12 string.

My guitars are always in climate controlled areas. Do the 12 strings, due to their higher string tension, require any extra care to keep the bridges bonded and the necks straight?

12 strings are loud enough, and hard enough to play that the slight volume penalty I get using Thomastik Plectrum strings- low tension, flat wound A,D, and D strings. lower tension 10’s is compensated by more comfortable playing, and a longer life for posts, necks and bridges.

Detuning is smart. Reading other posts here I find it’s the most common suggestion.

[rmp]

I have one of the 1512F guild 12 strings

The neck has two truss rods, and a top that looks almost twice the thickness of my J200. I keep it in standard tuning most of the time, right now it's in open D, but the neck doesn't move, I check it every time I yank it out of the case.

Tuning very stable, action is where the rest of my 6 strings are (5/64s B, 4/64s T)

[mcduffnw]

Hi neilca

The one single best thing you can do for your 12 string to help mitigate the long term effects of the extra string tension load is to tune it down one full step, to D, and then just capo up on the second fret if you want to play with the guitar in standard E tuning.

There are lots of folks out here who say balderdash on this notion, that their 12 string has been tuned up to standard pitch for years and years and it is just fine...no neck or top warp, no bridge lifting.

That may well be, but those folks are the lucky 1 out of 100 types. Most people who do that with their 12 string end up with troubles down the line at some point in time...or rather...their 12 string ends up with troubles.

I worked for over a decade in a large pawn shop. We had, on average, 700 guitars in pawn at any one time, about 50/50 acoustic and electric, and we had plenty of 12 strings in that gaggle of 700 guitars...some low end, many middle of the road, and some very high end, and through the years, I saw so so many 12 strings with neck, top, and bridge issues...at all price and quality points...that were caused simply by the guitar being tuned up to standard pitch.

I also worked for over 10 years at a Guitar Center here in Portland...I worked in the warehouse...and in that 10 years time, saw literally hundreds of 12 strings, both new and used, of all brands, sizes, shapes, and levels of quality and price. And once again, where the guitars had been tuned up to standard A440 pitch, there were many that were either beginning to show signs and issues with the tension load on the guitar. This was true whether new or used, but, on the new and used 12 strings that had been tuned down, the incidence of "string tension" issues was definitely much less, and this was more evident on the older used 12 strings where age and string pressure over time were much more evident.

I have played a 12 string since I was 13, now I am almost 60, and have always had a 12 string of one type or another all that time, and I always kept each and every one of them tuned down to D, capo'ed up to play in E, and never had a problem with any of the guitars, as far as action, or neck, body, or bridge warp of pull is concerned.

It is just so easy to just tune down, and capo up at the second fret, and it really can help your 12 string live a long and healthy life.

And...if you are a John Denver fan...and NOT a tenor...playing his songs one step lower can really help make a bunch of them easier to sing!

A Win Win...as it were {;-)


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Glennwillow]

I know that a lot of people with 12-string guitars tune down 1 or 2 semi-tones, and if that works for you, why not? It's certainly easier on the guitar. A lot of players keep their 6-strings tuned 1 or 2 semi-tones lower than standard, simply because in older age their vocal range is not all that great so the lower tuning helps them hit the high notes -- which are no longer quite so high with lower tunings.

On my Guild 12-strings I have had them tuned to standard pitch for their entire lives with no problem, but I make sure to use light gauge (0.010" dia. = high E) strings. My Guild F212 was built in 1972, my F512 in 2014.

I have found that when playing guitar with others, having the 12-string tuned differently was just a pain. And for my tastes, I like the sound of the 12-string at standard pitch. I also do not like the floppy strings at lower tunings. So a lot of this is about preferences.

Guild 12-strings were designed to be tuned at standard pitch with light gauge strings on them. As an engineer, I don't have a problem using equipment within design limits. The guitar was designed to handle the string load without self-destruction. And after 48 years at standard pitch on my Guild F212, my own experience says that tuning at standard pitch with the right gauge strings is going to be okay, not just for my Guild 12-string, but for all Guild 12-strings. That should be true for Taylor guitars, as well, though I have no personal experience owning a Taylor 12-string.

Guild warns that you need to keep an eye on your string action and that if neck movement starts to result in increasing string height, the owner needs to adjust the trussrods to pull the neck back. If you let the neck bend too far, they warn that you'll be in trouble. I have never seen this neck distortion problem with my Guild 12-string guitars, but apparently the Guild people have.

- Glenn

[neilca]

Thanks for all the good input.

The D'angelico is a laminated rosewood back and sides with a solid spruce top. I live in Georgia, so drying out the wood is not possible. GC had a one day sale where the D'angelico was half price so I jumped on that.

I think to start out, I will tune it down and capo. If that doesn't work for me then I will go for broke and tune to full pitch.

[bsman]

Have fun! If you're like me, you will find that while it never will replace your six-strings, it is a very useful additional arrow in the quiver.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Guild warns that you need to keep an eye on your string action and that if neck movement starts to result in increasing string height, the owner needs to adjust the trussrods to pull the neck back. If you let the neck bend too far, they warn that you'll be in trouble. I have never seen this neck distortion problem with my Guild 12-string guitars, but apparently the Guild people have.

- Glenn

Yeppers Glenn...it even happens to double truss rodded Guilds too! In 2001 bought a used 1983 Westerly F-512, gorgeous guitar, but, it needed a neck reset due to the previous, and original owner tuning it up to standard pitch. Fortunately the neck was not warped, the top at the upper bout/neck block area was deforming and rotating and the neck was pulling straight, but up.

You have been one of the lucky 1 in 100 12 string owners who has not had an issue with your guitars tuned at standard pitch...but...really and truly...you are one of the fortunate minority.

Hey...Wednesday is Lottery day...you might oughta nab a ticket {;-)


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[rstaight]

I have had my Takamine GJ72CE-12 string going on 2 years. Have always tuned it to standard tuning. Was thinking about dropping down 2 steps but then I seen what they do when assembling the necks. Still standard tuning.

This thing is heavy, even for a jumbo. I watch the humidity mainly because I have 5 acoustics and a mandolin I play. The guitar gets played once or twice a week and have not noticed any change in the setup.

How does it hold tune? Just fine thank you.

I believe 12 strings that are built today are a little more robust than previously. But read all the information you can and do what you think is best for situation.

[6L6]

My 1971 Guild F-312NT is strung with PB Light gauge strings.

It sits at concert pitch year in and year out and suffers no problems whatsoever.

[neilca]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I know that a lot of people with 12-string guitars tune down 1 or 2 semi-tones, and if that works for you, why not? It's certainly easier on the guitar. A lot of players keep their 6-strings tuned 1 or 2 semi-tones lower than standard, simply because in older age their vocal range is not all that great so the lower tuning helps them hit the high notes -- which are no longer quite so high with lower tunings.

On my Guild 12-strings I have had them tuned to standard pitch for their entire lives with no problem, but I make sure to use light gauge (0.010" dia. = high E) strings. My Guild F212 was built in 1972, my F512 in 2014.

I have found that when playing guitar with others, having the 12-string tuned differently was just a pain. And for my tastes, I like the sound of the 12-string at standard pitch. I also do not like the floppy strings at lower tunings. So a lot of this is about preferences.

Guild 12-strings were designed to be tuned at standard pitch with light gauge strings on them. As an engineer, I don't have a problem using equipment within design limits. The guitar was designed to handle the string load without self-destruction. And after 48 years at standard pitch on my Guild F212, my own experience says that tuning at standard pitch with the right gauge strings is going to be okay, not just for my Guild 12-string, but for all Guild 12-strings. That should be true for Taylor guitars, as well, though I have no personal experience owning a Taylor 12-string.

Guild warns that you need to keep an eye on your string action and that if neck movement starts to result in increasing string height, the owner needs to adjust the trussrods to pull the neck back. If you let the neck bend too far, they warn that you'll be in trouble. I have never seen this neck distortion problem with my Guild 12-string guitars, but apparently the Guild people have.

- Glenn

Glenn

Your post was very thought provoking. I am a retired Materials Engineer and I get what you are pitching. Allowing a neck to bend without the benefit of the truss rod reinforcement would yield the wood past the point of redemption. I believe that is what happened to the Taylor I had. Things that make you say Hmmmmm…..

[hess]

Originally Posted by neilca

I had purchased a used Taylor 150e. The neck was badly concave and action was high, so I returned the guitar. I have since bought a D'Angelico 12 string.

My guitars are always in climate controlled areas. Do the 12 strings, due to their higher string tension, require any extra care to keep the bridges bonded and the necks straight?

That’s interesting. I’ve owned a few 12 strings and am down to one, a Taylor LKSM12. I keep 13-56 (considered heavy) strings on it tuned to std C# but don’t hesitate to change to open tunings. I can’t think of a better application of a bolt on neck than a 12. Tim Luranc adjusted the neck slightly once while doing a setup for me. Otherwise it’s been very stable.

[neilca]

[QUOTE=Silly Moustache;6424386]I tune my Martin and Harmony down one whole tone (D-d) -I don't like playing in flat keys and neither does Mando Bob nor Mad-dog Ian the bass.




Dang that was just great entertainment, thanks!

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

Yeppers Glenn...it even happens to double truss rodded Guilds too! In 2001 bought a used 1983 Westerly F-512, gorgeous guitar, but, it needed a neck reset due to the previous, and original owner tuning it up to standard pitch. Fortunately the neck was not warped, the top at the upper bout/neck block area was deforming and rotating and the neck was pulling straight, but up.

You have been one of the lucky 1 in 100 12 string owners who has not had an issue with your guitars tuned at standard pitch...but...really and truly...you are one of the fortunate minority.

Hey...Wednesday is Lottery day...you might oughta nab a ticket {;-)


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

I would suggest that the real numbers are way higher than 1 in 100 of successful owners of Guild 12-strings tuned to concert pitch.

Since the guitar was designed for standard pitch, the numbers ought to be more like 99/100. But you can believe what you want.

Do you ever push you car's accelerator all the way down to the floor? Ever??? Do you ever turn your windshield wipers up to full speed? Ever???

I don't know much about the lottery. Never bought a ticket. I don't gamble; I like to use science.

- Glenn

[jspe]

If you live in a climate with stable humidity and temperature, never travel, and check your adjustments frequently, your 12 string might be ok long term if you tune it to pitch.
But as for the rest of us...
I live in an area with brutal dry winter climate, forced air furnaces, and summers with marginal but never normal humidity.
No...12 strings do not survive here.
It's keep a check on the truss rod and saddle height (at least every string change), use light or extra light strings (9-46 Ernie Balls work best to save your neck), and tune down 1/2 or whole step (or 1 1/2 steps).
That's the deal here. good luck in winter also, and keep at least 2 oasis humidifiers in there. Otherwise your 12 will perish. Yes I mean Guild, Takamine, Gibson , Larrivee, Taylor, etc., etc.

[joebloggs]

I own a Guild F1512e, all solid wood, Sitka top EI Rosewood back and sides. Guitar is built like a tank and is an absolute cannon. I keep it tuned to concert pitch and don't even think about it. Sounds and plays great.